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in the 1930s

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roosevelt nation through a series of

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radio broadcasts known as the fireside

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chats

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his aim was to reassure the common man

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that our society would recover from its

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for a new era of worldly frustration we

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offer a fresh conversation

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wow how's it going everybody welcome to

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thc drinking a little drink

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smoking a little smoke i'm the man who

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calls himself the carl wood thanks for

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listening thanks for tweeting liking and

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reviewing the show you're all bona fide

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pimps and i salute you for it

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i'm moving some of the pieces around on

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thc so i'm going to drop on you

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everyone's favorite ad for conspiracies

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my attempt to bring the conspiracy

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perspective out into the open

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into the world of bold fashion it's also

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the best way to keep me alive supporting

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that little venture so here's that and

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on the other side we'll be talking to

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trevor aronson about his new book

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terror factory inside the fbi's

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manufactured war

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we're here because we don't buy into the

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[\h__\h] of mainstream culture

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we're tired of the mundane passionless

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careers we've been shuffled into as a

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result of this orchestrated debt-based

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system of rule

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and the stranglehold on education

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entertainment by cold soulless

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corporations

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people yes we are frustrated yes

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we are tired and we reject the free of

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root tranquilizers that are monday night

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football and an ice cold budweiser

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we have to stop hiding stop hiding

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behind the headphones in the cherry

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popper 420 username

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let the world see that the resistance is

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strong and society is changing

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it was a time to be anonymous that time

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has passed

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and so the higher side chats would like

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to present conspiracies as the dawning

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of this new paradigm in the uniform of

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the revolution

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because bold fashion should mean more

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than some celebrity meat dress or frappu

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and a silly pink polo

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conspirates redefines bold fashion as

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having the balls to project socially

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uncomfortable

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and unpopular truths from your radiant

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chest all

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[\h__\h] day conspiracies.net

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let them know that you know bold designs

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for trouble times

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hard truths soft [\h__\h]

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folks it has been over a decade since

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the suspicious tragedy of 911 and it's

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hard for even the most conventional of

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patriots to argue that our response

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hasn't been at very least

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a bit overblown yeah we've invaded

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numerous countries ruined more lives

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than can be counted

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overthrown unconnected governments hung

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unaffiliated leaders

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spent trillions of dollars on corporate

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weaponry groped and degraded millions of

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innocent travelers

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confiscated hundreds of thousands of

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bottles of cologne and hair gel

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accepted the invasion of our privacy and

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invited our streamline

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in definite detention folks it would

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seem excessive even without the looming

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doubt of the official story

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unfortunately the culture of fear

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stemming from that single day

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has done damage to this world that will

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last generations

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a fact that hits home much harder when

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you realize the majority of the paranoia

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causing terror plots over the past 10

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years

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have not been planned in some foreign

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cave in the sand but instead by

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overeager agents and fbi cubicles

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today's guest trevor aronson is here to

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walk us through just such a realization

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with his new book

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the terror factory inside the fbi's

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manufactured war on terrorism

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trevor is a winner of over two dozen

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awards in journalism and his trajectory

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is looking stronger than ever

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you've seen him on democracy now russian

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times and this american life and i'm

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happy to welcome him here to thc

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trevor how's it going great great thanks

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for having me

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absolutely thanks for being here wow

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what a great book man

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i commend your work in such a taboo area

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making a career out of government

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criticism seems to be riskier and

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riskier these days

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i i think we we do see you know there's

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a especially after 9 11 there was a real

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skepticism of the press or i'm sorry

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unwillingness by the press to really be

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skeptical of these

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uh you know types of cases and the fbi's

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counterterrorism program in general

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right and uh so well so to kick it off

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in the intro i ran through quite a few

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of the negative consequences

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due to the war on terror now most

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tried and too true patriots would

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respond by saying everything the

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government is doing is justified

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because we've had no attacks since but

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would you say that's a naive way of

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looking at it

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i i do think it's not you know it's true

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that we we haven't had any uh attacks i

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mean

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there have been a couple of close calls

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you know i don't make the case in the in

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the book that there there aren't

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terrorists at all i mean if you look at

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najib zazi you know he came close to

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obama's new york subway system in 2009

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and

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attempt to bomb times square

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in 2010 but you know the majority of

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cases that the

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department of justice and the fbi have

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brought into federal court

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uh for terrorism charges since 9 11

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haven't been like najib

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zazi and fajr instead they've been

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you know what i would consider people on

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the fringes of society that are

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economically desperate or in some cases

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mentally ill

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who get caught up in a sting operation

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involving an fbi informant

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who offers them all the means and

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opportunity they need to commit an act

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of terrorism

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you know what the fbi fears today is not

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this trained well-organized cell of

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terrorists

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like we saw in 911 or like in other

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parts of the world what they really fear

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is someone who

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they consider a lone wolf someone here

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in the united states who you know

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doesn't have a specific connection to al

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qaeda but you know becomes inspired

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through

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al qaeda jihadi videos and extremist

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message boards

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to commit some sort of act of terrorism

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and so these sting operations are

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intended to lure these people out to

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find the people who are

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on that line you know as an fbi says you

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know

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crossing about to cross over from

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sympathizer to operator

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and they do that by by inserting

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informants and undercover agents

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and you know buddying them up so to

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speak to people who say they want to

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commit an act of terrorism

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and then providing all the means

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necessary the logistical means sometimes

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the idea itself

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and in almost every case they provide

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the bomb and the weapons and so most of

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these people

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who are prosecuted on terrorism charges

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and who the federal government

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puts forward in press conferences as

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being a dangerous tariff who was about

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without the strike never have the

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capacity on their own for terrorism in

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most cases

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they never had weapons of their own in

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in most cases they had very little money

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and so it's hard to believe that on

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their own they would have become tariffs

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but through these elaborate sting

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operations the fbi is able to kind of

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overnight transform them

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into uh you know someone that the the

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public starts to believe as a dangerous

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terrorist

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right and some of these stories are are

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more shocking than others you know the

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the range is pretty wide on how you know

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susceptible to terrorism

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the patsy really is but run us through

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these numbers because the book says

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there's been

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about 508 people charged with having

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terrorists planned since 9 11

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what percentage of these quote foiled

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plots could be

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considered in some way fbi manufactured

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right so there's been in the decade

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after 9 11 there were a little over 500

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defendants and terrorism cases and of

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those 500

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um about half were were

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involving informants so in some cases

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the informant

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acted as you might suspect he provided

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information to the fbi

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but in other cases in in more than 150

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cases

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the informant acts as almost as an agent

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provocateur he provides

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uh he plays a role in the sting

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operation in some cases he provides the

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idea

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in other cases he provides the means and

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in these sting operations there

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there's never anyone you know by

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themselves who's capable of terrorism

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it's always the fbi informant to the

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undercover agent who make the terrorism

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possible

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you know a good example of this is a a

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case that became well known outside new

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york city

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known as the newburgh iv and these were

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four african-american converts to islam

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and thanks to a very aggressive

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informant they

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engaged in this plot to bomb synagogues

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in the bronx

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well it turns out that the lead defended

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on the case in the case with a

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walmart stalker who had a history of

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mental illness had no money on his own

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and it was the informant who ultimately

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provided everything they needed that he

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provided the transportation because they

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didn't have cars

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he provided the money they needed to

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build the bomb making

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to buy the bomb making material he

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provided the know-how to build the bombs

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and then all the the defendants had to

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do was just place the bombs

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in front of the synagogues which they

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did but on their own these are guys that

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were on the fringes of society i mean

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they had no interest in

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you know commit no ability to commit

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terrorism on their own and in addition

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to

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the informant providing all the means he

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offered he also offered a number of

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inducements you know he offered

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them in 250 000 and carried forward in

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the plot

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and you know to the lead defendant he

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offered him a to buy him a barber shop

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and so you know that's a case that fbi

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director robert mueller has

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decided repeatedly to congress as an

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example of the fbi thwarting

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an impending terrorist attack but in

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00:08:51,829 --> 00:08:49,920
truth that

285
00:08:53,350 --> 00:08:51,839
that attack was only made possible

286
00:08:54,070 --> 00:08:53,360
through this elaborate sting operation

287
00:08:56,389 --> 00:08:54,080
where the fbi

288
00:08:57,269 --> 00:08:56,399
basically empowered you know a group of

289
00:08:59,030 --> 00:08:57,279
losers to

290
00:09:00,550 --> 00:08:59,040
you know overnight become terrorists

291
00:09:01,590 --> 00:09:00,560
right i mean in some of these cases you

292
00:09:05,110 --> 00:09:01,600
got

293
00:09:07,590 --> 00:09:05,120
an informant who is paid by the fbi

294
00:09:09,350 --> 00:09:07,600
per terrorist i guess and you know

295
00:09:11,670 --> 00:09:09,360
they're finding people

296
00:09:12,630 --> 00:09:11,680
who are kind of online just running

297
00:09:14,710 --> 00:09:12,640
their mouth that have

298
00:09:16,230 --> 00:09:14,720
mental problems and no money and then

299
00:09:17,750 --> 00:09:16,240
they're stringing them along

300
00:09:19,269 --> 00:09:17,760
offering them money to do it and then

301
00:09:21,990 --> 00:09:19,279
saying hey guys get this guy

302
00:09:24,070 --> 00:09:22,000
i got one put the check in the bank

303
00:09:25,829 --> 00:09:24,080
exactly you know and i think that's

304
00:09:28,150 --> 00:09:25,839
that's one of the most fascinating parts

305
00:09:29,350 --> 00:09:28,160
about this story i think because

306
00:09:30,870 --> 00:09:29,360
you know this story ultimately is a

307
00:09:32,070 --> 00:09:30,880
story about terrorism but it's also a

308
00:09:33,590 --> 00:09:32,080
story about

309
00:09:35,269 --> 00:09:33,600
you know justice and the fairness of

310
00:09:36,870 --> 00:09:35,279
justice justice united states and the

311
00:09:38,150 --> 00:09:36,880
administration of that justice

312
00:09:39,990 --> 00:09:38,160
and you know what's particularly

313
00:09:41,030 --> 00:09:40,000
disturbing i think is that so many of

314
00:09:42,550 --> 00:09:41,040
these informants

315
00:09:44,310 --> 00:09:42,560
involved in these sting operations have

316
00:09:44,790 --> 00:09:44,320
a financial interest in the prosecution

317
00:09:46,790 --> 00:09:44,800
you know

318
00:09:47,829 --> 00:09:46,800
they will get paid if they find someone

319
00:09:48,949 --> 00:09:47,839
who um

320
00:09:50,790 --> 00:09:48,959
you know they can portray as this

321
00:09:51,190 --> 00:09:50,800
terrorist and a sting operation and they

322
00:09:52,710 --> 00:09:51,200
can

323
00:09:54,389 --> 00:09:52,720
be paid handsome sons you know some of

324
00:09:55,990 --> 00:09:54,399
these informants make a hundred thousand

325
00:09:57,590 --> 00:09:56,000
dollars or more per case

326
00:09:59,350 --> 00:09:57,600
and so when you have that kind of

327
00:10:00,470 --> 00:09:59,360
incentive where you know if you can go

328
00:10:01,829 --> 00:10:00,480
out and find someone

329
00:10:03,350 --> 00:10:01,839
um who says they want to commit an act

330
00:10:04,949 --> 00:10:03,360
of terrorism and bring them along on the

331
00:10:05,670 --> 00:10:04,959
plot there's going to be a lot of money

332
00:10:07,509 --> 00:10:05,680
waiting for you

333
00:10:09,110 --> 00:10:07,519
for it at the end you know that's going

334
00:10:10,389 --> 00:10:09,120
to that creates a recipe where you're

335
00:10:10,949 --> 00:10:10,399
going to have a lot of these cases

336
00:10:12,069 --> 00:10:10,959
because

337
00:10:14,069 --> 00:10:12,079
the informant is going to be very

338
00:10:16,310 --> 00:10:14,079
aggressive in finding people who are

339
00:10:17,990 --> 00:10:16,320
susceptible who are easily influenced

340
00:10:19,190 --> 00:10:18,000
and then guide them along in a process

341
00:10:19,910 --> 00:10:19,200
you know that's part of a sting

342
00:10:21,750 --> 00:10:19,920
operation

343
00:10:24,230 --> 00:10:21,760
where you know from day one they have

344
00:10:26,870 --> 00:10:24,240
little capacity and by day 90

345
00:10:27,670 --> 00:10:26,880
you know they have a bomb in a storage

346
00:10:28,949 --> 00:10:27,680
unit and they're

347
00:10:31,350 --> 00:10:28,959
ready willing to deliver it with the

348
00:10:32,069 --> 00:10:31,360
informant it is crazy and one of the

349
00:10:34,230 --> 00:10:32,079
most shocking

350
00:10:36,470 --> 00:10:34,240
stories in the book to me about someone

351
00:10:38,470 --> 00:10:36,480
becoming a patsy in a terror plot was

352
00:10:39,910 --> 00:10:38,480
the story of the albany pizza man

353
00:10:41,350 --> 00:10:39,920
mohamed haussein

354
00:10:43,110 --> 00:10:41,360
walk us through that case a little bit

355
00:10:44,630 --> 00:10:43,120
so folks can better understand how this

356
00:10:47,190 --> 00:10:44,640
happens to people

357
00:10:48,870 --> 00:10:47,200
right so the fbi was interested in this

358
00:10:51,509 --> 00:10:48,880
man who was a local imam

359
00:10:51,910 --> 00:10:51,519
in in uh albany new york named yasina

360
00:10:53,990 --> 00:10:51,920
ref

361
00:10:55,030 --> 00:10:54,000
and they needed to find a way to get to

362
00:10:57,269 --> 00:10:55,040
him and so

363
00:10:58,949 --> 00:10:57,279
they um they ended up targeting this

364
00:10:59,590 --> 00:10:58,959
local pizzeria owner named mohammed

365
00:11:01,509 --> 00:10:59,600
hussain

366
00:11:02,870 --> 00:11:01,519
and the the fbi used this very

367
00:11:04,870 --> 00:11:02,880
aggressive informant

368
00:11:05,990 --> 00:11:04,880
named shahed hussein and and the names

369
00:11:07,190 --> 00:11:06,000
can be confusing but because they were

370
00:11:10,230 --> 00:11:07,200
both similar but

371
00:11:11,269 --> 00:11:10,240
in in this case um muhammad hussain you

372
00:11:12,710 --> 00:11:11,279
know is going about his

373
00:11:14,310 --> 00:11:12,720
life he's actually built a nice life for

374
00:11:15,190 --> 00:11:14,320
himself united states he had several

375
00:11:17,430 --> 00:11:15,200
rental properties

376
00:11:18,230 --> 00:11:17,440
a successful pizzeria he cared for his

377
00:11:20,470 --> 00:11:18,240
whole family

378
00:11:21,269 --> 00:11:20,480
as well as his mentally disabled brother

379
00:11:22,949 --> 00:11:21,279
and um

380
00:11:24,470 --> 00:11:22,959
the fbi chose to target him because they

381
00:11:27,990 --> 00:11:24,480
wanted to get closer to the

382
00:11:30,550 --> 00:11:28,000
the imam and muhammad hussein was a

383
00:11:31,829 --> 00:11:30,560
a very devout muslim and was active in

384
00:11:33,910 --> 00:11:31,839
the local mosque

385
00:11:35,590 --> 00:11:33,920
and they they devised this plot where

386
00:11:36,630 --> 00:11:35,600
they were going to loan to muhammad

387
00:11:39,430 --> 00:11:36,640
hussein

388
00:11:41,670 --> 00:11:39,440
um money that he needed to repair some

389
00:11:44,230 --> 00:11:41,680
boilers at a rental property that he had

390
00:11:45,509 --> 00:11:44,240
and uh essentially the the fbi informant

391
00:11:46,870 --> 00:11:45,519
told muhammad was saying well

392
00:11:48,710 --> 00:11:46,880
you know i've got this money coming in

393
00:11:51,190 --> 00:11:48,720
i'm an importer exporter from

394
00:11:52,710 --> 00:11:51,200
from china and you know i've got to move

395
00:11:54,550 --> 00:11:52,720
this fifty thousand dollars i'll give

396
00:11:56,790 --> 00:11:54,560
you fifty thousand dollars if you'll

397
00:11:58,310 --> 00:11:56,800
uh you know pay it back to me over time

398
00:12:01,269 --> 00:11:58,320
and so they agreed to do that

399
00:12:03,590 --> 00:12:01,279
um what the fbi do is that muhammad

400
00:12:06,069 --> 00:12:03,600
hossein being a very devout muslim

401
00:12:07,350 --> 00:12:06,079
would want a muslim religious leader to

402
00:12:08,790 --> 00:12:07,360
oversee the transaction which is

403
00:12:11,030 --> 00:12:08,800
customary in islam

404
00:12:11,990 --> 00:12:11,040
and just to make sure that the the

405
00:12:13,590 --> 00:12:12,000
financial

406
00:12:15,269 --> 00:12:13,600
uh transaction meets the religious

407
00:12:16,870 --> 00:12:15,279
standards and so the fbi

408
00:12:18,389 --> 00:12:16,880
undercover agent says that muhammad who

409
00:12:19,990 --> 00:12:18,399
said well you know i don't want an

410
00:12:21,110 --> 00:12:20,000
indian and i don't want a pakistani

411
00:12:22,790 --> 00:12:21,120
overseeing this

412
00:12:24,389 --> 00:12:22,800
and um and he said that for a very

413
00:12:26,710 --> 00:12:24,399
specific reason which was that

414
00:12:27,990 --> 00:12:26,720
that only left one other local muslim

415
00:12:29,990 --> 00:12:28,000
religious leader in town and that was

416
00:12:33,030 --> 00:12:30,000
justina ref who was in iraqi

417
00:12:34,230 --> 00:12:33,040
and uh uh kurdish iraqi and so yashina

418
00:12:36,470 --> 00:12:34,240
rest is brought in to

419
00:12:38,310 --> 00:12:36,480
oversee this financial transaction and

420
00:12:39,030 --> 00:12:38,320
during the financial transaction the fbi

421
00:12:41,750 --> 00:12:39,040
informant

422
00:12:43,269 --> 00:12:41,760
holds up a trigger device for a missile

423
00:12:44,629 --> 00:12:43,279
which is really hard to tell if the

424
00:12:47,269 --> 00:12:44,639
trigger provides it looks like an

425
00:12:48,949 --> 00:12:47,279
oversized label maker um and he's saying

426
00:12:50,710 --> 00:12:48,959
things about mujahideen and

427
00:12:52,870 --> 00:12:50,720
making a number of comments that are

428
00:12:54,949 --> 00:12:52,880
somewhat nonsensical at times

429
00:12:56,790 --> 00:12:54,959
but that was enough for the fbi to to

430
00:12:58,949 --> 00:12:56,800
build a case around both of them

431
00:12:59,910 --> 00:12:58,959
for money laundering for supporting

432
00:13:02,550 --> 00:12:59,920
terrorism

433
00:13:03,430 --> 00:13:02,560
and uh yasina ref was was was convicted

434
00:13:05,190 --> 00:13:03,440
as was

435
00:13:07,590 --> 00:13:05,200
mohammed hossein and muhammad hussain is

436
00:13:09,110 --> 00:13:07,600
serving at least 15 years in prison

437
00:13:11,670 --> 00:13:09,120
but this is a guy who never had any

438
00:13:14,069 --> 00:13:11,680
specific connection to terrorism

439
00:13:15,190 --> 00:13:14,079
right the evidence suggested that it was

440
00:13:16,790 --> 00:13:15,200
very

441
00:13:19,110 --> 00:13:16,800
unlikely that he realized the money he

442
00:13:20,230 --> 00:13:19,120
was funneling was supposed to be related

443
00:13:22,389 --> 00:13:20,240
at all to terrorism

444
00:13:24,470 --> 00:13:22,399
there was a rather uh you know odd

445
00:13:25,750 --> 00:13:24,480
moment where the fbi informant shows

446
00:13:27,990 --> 00:13:25,760
muhammad hussain a

447
00:13:29,670 --> 00:13:28,000
service to air missile but then tells

448
00:13:31,430 --> 00:13:29,680
him later that you know he's an importer

449
00:13:32,389 --> 00:13:31,440
exporter and he knows an fbi agent and

450
00:13:33,910 --> 00:13:32,399
it's all legitimate

451
00:13:34,949 --> 00:13:33,920
and so muhammad hussain was left with

452
00:13:36,470 --> 00:13:34,959
the impression that well that's weird

453
00:13:37,910 --> 00:13:36,480
that he was importing weapons but

454
00:13:39,509 --> 00:13:37,920
you know he tells me he knows an fbi

455
00:13:40,069 --> 00:13:39,519
agent he tells me it's legitimate you

456
00:13:41,430 --> 00:13:40,079
know there

457
00:13:43,110 --> 00:13:41,440
there is a legitimate business in

458
00:13:45,269 --> 00:13:43,120
importing and exporting weapons

459
00:13:47,430 --> 00:13:45,279
um and you know this was a case that

460
00:13:49,030 --> 00:13:47,440
largely outraged the community in albany

461
00:13:50,629 --> 00:13:49,040
um and it was enough to get but it was

462
00:13:53,030 --> 00:13:50,639
enough to get both of them you know

463
00:13:54,069 --> 00:13:53,040
convicted and neither of these men were

464
00:13:56,389 --> 00:13:54,079
at all involved

465
00:13:58,470 --> 00:13:56,399
in any plot that was imminent in any you

466
00:14:00,230 --> 00:13:58,480
know terrorism organization that

467
00:14:02,310 --> 00:14:00,240
posed any sort of threat to the united

468
00:14:05,350 --> 00:14:02,320
states you know the the only connection

469
00:14:07,189 --> 00:14:05,360
to terrorism was a rather distant

470
00:14:09,350 --> 00:14:07,199
connection for yasina ref where

471
00:14:10,710 --> 00:14:09,360
allegedly in iraq they found a list of

472
00:14:13,430 --> 00:14:10,720
names uh for

473
00:14:14,550 --> 00:14:13,440
a group and yassina ref's name was on

474
00:14:15,189 --> 00:14:14,560
that but that was all the government

475
00:14:16,230 --> 00:14:15,199
really had

476
00:14:17,829 --> 00:14:16,240
and that's all they've been able to

477
00:14:19,030 --> 00:14:17,839
release publicly yet they were still

478
00:14:20,230 --> 00:14:19,040
able to get convictions for both of

479
00:14:22,629 --> 00:14:20,240
these men

480
00:14:24,230 --> 00:14:22,639
yeah it is really sad because the guy is

481
00:14:26,230 --> 00:14:24,240
just working in his pizza shop an

482
00:14:29,350 --> 00:14:26,240
informant shows up he's giving

483
00:14:31,189 --> 00:14:29,360
toys to his kids he's telling him he can

484
00:14:33,829 --> 00:14:31,199
get his uh mentally challenged

485
00:14:35,670 --> 00:14:33,839
brother an id card and he's just

486
00:14:37,030 --> 00:14:35,680
injecting himself into this man's life

487
00:14:38,790 --> 00:14:37,040
he didn't seek him out

488
00:14:40,550 --> 00:14:38,800
and uh you know then he's like oh you

489
00:14:41,269 --> 00:14:40,560
need a loan man well i can help you out

490
00:14:43,670 --> 00:14:41,279
and i guess he

491
00:14:45,350 --> 00:14:43,680
kind of thought because of the religious

492
00:14:47,189 --> 00:14:45,360
connection like maybe that's why he's

493
00:14:47,750 --> 00:14:47,199
being so nice he's got the extra money

494
00:14:49,189 --> 00:14:47,760
but

495
00:14:51,189 --> 00:14:49,199
you know to just be turned around and

496
00:14:52,470 --> 00:14:51,199
thrown in jail for 15 years

497
00:14:54,790 --> 00:14:52,480
you know a lot of people think oh this

498
00:14:56,310 --> 00:14:54,800
can't happen to me and

499
00:14:57,990 --> 00:14:56,320
i'm sure there's also a little bit of a

500
00:14:59,110 --> 00:14:58,000
culture of racism when it comes to the

501
00:15:01,829 --> 00:14:59,120
prosecution

502
00:15:02,310 --> 00:15:01,839
but you know it's not that far off from

503
00:15:04,550 --> 00:15:02,320
just

504
00:15:06,310 --> 00:15:04,560
happening to anyone that they decide to

505
00:15:07,590 --> 00:15:06,320
throw into that plot

506
00:15:09,189 --> 00:15:07,600
and it's certainly worth noting that the

507
00:15:10,230 --> 00:15:09,199
evidence suggested that the informant

508
00:15:12,470 --> 00:15:10,240
they used

509
00:15:14,069 --> 00:15:12,480
in targeting muhammad hussein was a far

510
00:15:15,350 --> 00:15:14,079
worse criminal than muhammad hussein

511
00:15:17,509 --> 00:15:15,360
ever could have been you know the the

512
00:15:20,150 --> 00:15:17,519
informant she had hussein was accused of

513
00:15:22,069 --> 00:15:20,160
murder in pakistan and fled the country

514
00:15:25,430 --> 00:15:22,079
he was then running a dmv scam where he

515
00:15:27,590 --> 00:15:25,440
had several people who worked at the dmv

516
00:15:29,430 --> 00:15:27,600
he helped a number of immigrants get

517
00:15:30,710 --> 00:15:29,440
driver's licenses that were fraudulent

518
00:15:31,590 --> 00:15:30,720
so they could use them to become cab

519
00:15:34,069 --> 00:15:31,600
drivers

520
00:15:35,670 --> 00:15:34,079
in new york there's evidence that while

521
00:15:37,030 --> 00:15:35,680
he was declaring bankruptcy

522
00:15:38,389 --> 00:15:37,040
he didn't declare to the court five

523
00:15:39,430 --> 00:15:38,399
hundred thousand dollars he had in an

524
00:15:40,870 --> 00:15:39,440
overseas account

525
00:15:42,710 --> 00:15:40,880
you know all types of things that you

526
00:15:44,310 --> 00:15:42,720
know are criminal

527
00:15:46,150 --> 00:15:44,320
and he was able to escape those criminal

528
00:15:48,150 --> 00:15:46,160
charges because he agreed to work

529
00:15:49,829 --> 00:15:48,160
as an informant for the fbi and then

530
00:15:51,430 --> 00:15:49,839
ultimately you know hounded muhammad

531
00:15:52,870 --> 00:15:51,440
hossein as part of this case

532
00:15:54,550 --> 00:15:52,880
and you know now she had hussein has

533
00:15:55,749 --> 00:15:54,560
continued to work with the fbi he

534
00:15:57,430 --> 00:15:55,759
he makes a hundred thousand dollars or

535
00:15:58,310 --> 00:15:57,440
more per case and move moves from case

536
00:16:00,629 --> 00:15:58,320
to case and

537
00:16:01,670 --> 00:16:00,639
you know has both an economic incentive

538
00:16:02,870 --> 00:16:01,680
because he can make a lot of money

539
00:16:04,470 --> 00:16:02,880
within that with the fbi

540
00:16:05,910 --> 00:16:04,480
but also a kind of a punitive one you

541
00:16:07,030 --> 00:16:05,920
know that that as long as he works for

542
00:16:08,550 --> 00:16:07,040
the fbi he

543
00:16:09,829 --> 00:16:08,560
doesn't have to worry about facing any

544
00:16:10,949 --> 00:16:09,839
criminal charges for what he's done in

545
00:16:13,269 --> 00:16:10,959
the past

546
00:16:15,030 --> 00:16:13,279
yeah and you call him in the book you

547
00:16:15,509 --> 00:16:15,040
call him the super informant and he is

548
00:16:17,269 --> 00:16:15,519
such an

549
00:16:19,110 --> 00:16:17,279
[\h__\h] because you know he has a

550
00:16:21,110 --> 00:16:19,120
culture of doing this to people

551
00:16:22,790 --> 00:16:21,120
for his paycheck and obviously you said

552
00:16:24,470 --> 00:16:22,800
you know the guy

553
00:16:26,230 --> 00:16:24,480
is a worse criminal than anyone than

554
00:16:27,590 --> 00:16:26,240
most of the people he's he's getting

555
00:16:29,189 --> 00:16:27,600
mixed up in these plots

556
00:16:30,870 --> 00:16:29,199
he's just a guy hungry for money and he

557
00:16:32,710 --> 00:16:30,880
found a way to get it

558
00:16:34,470 --> 00:16:32,720
absolutely yeah one of the things i

559
00:16:36,230 --> 00:16:34,480
mentioned as i mentioned in the book

560
00:16:37,910 --> 00:16:36,240
you know it's important to understand

561
00:16:39,670 --> 00:16:37,920
that you know informants are not

562
00:16:41,430 --> 00:16:39,680
nice guys they're they're usually you

563
00:16:42,310 --> 00:16:41,440
know in some cases worse than the people

564
00:16:44,629 --> 00:16:42,320
they target

565
00:16:45,910 --> 00:16:44,639
you know steven trott who's a judge and

566
00:16:47,110 --> 00:16:45,920
the district court appellate judge in

567
00:16:49,189 --> 00:16:47,120
the federal level

568
00:16:50,470 --> 00:16:49,199
calls you know the informant sociopath

569
00:16:51,350 --> 00:16:50,480
and i think that's a great description

570
00:16:53,350 --> 00:16:51,360
for them because

571
00:16:55,030 --> 00:16:53,360
you know they have to basically do what

572
00:16:56,790 --> 00:16:55,040
most people would

573
00:16:58,310 --> 00:16:56,800
would hate which is that they have to go

574
00:17:00,310 --> 00:16:58,320
and every day lie to someone

575
00:17:01,829 --> 00:17:00,320
and then over months and even years

576
00:17:03,430 --> 00:17:01,839
build up an intense

577
00:17:05,189 --> 00:17:03,440
relationship a great friendship with

578
00:17:06,230 --> 00:17:05,199
someone and then be willing to turn on

579
00:17:08,470 --> 00:17:06,240
that person you know

580
00:17:10,069 --> 00:17:08,480
and send that person to jail for for

581
00:17:11,669 --> 00:17:10,079
decades and and i don't think that's

582
00:17:12,949 --> 00:17:11,679
something that anyone other than a

583
00:17:13,750 --> 00:17:12,959
sociopath could really do in good

584
00:17:15,110 --> 00:17:13,760
conscience right

585
00:17:16,630 --> 00:17:15,120
and it doesn't always end well i mean

586
00:17:17,590 --> 00:17:16,640
have you ever seen bulletproof you know

587
00:17:20,789 --> 00:17:17,600
that

588
00:17:23,990 --> 00:17:20,799
right yeah i mean you know

589
00:17:25,029 --> 00:17:24,000
these ultimately the the fbi you know

590
00:17:27,510 --> 00:17:25,039
it's important to note like

591
00:17:28,309 --> 00:17:27,520
in using these informants the good ones

592
00:17:30,230 --> 00:17:28,319
are never going to be

593
00:17:31,669 --> 00:17:30,240
good guys you know so ultimately almost

594
00:17:33,190 --> 00:17:31,679
every one of these informants

595
00:17:35,590 --> 00:17:33,200
has some kind of baggage you know the

596
00:17:37,750 --> 00:17:35,600
fbi in many of these thing operations

597
00:17:38,950 --> 00:17:37,760
has used criminals they've included you

598
00:17:40,870 --> 00:17:38,960
know drug dealers

599
00:17:43,430 --> 00:17:40,880
um in one case it included a man who was

600
00:17:45,110 --> 00:17:43,440
wanted in albania for shooting someone

601
00:17:46,630 --> 00:17:45,120
in another case it included a child

602
00:17:48,150 --> 00:17:46,640
molester you know it

603
00:17:49,990 --> 00:17:48,160
the fbi is willing to use just about

604
00:17:51,430 --> 00:17:50,000
anyone as an informant uh

605
00:17:53,029 --> 00:17:51,440
which really raises a question you know

606
00:17:54,630 --> 00:17:53,039
like are we really um

607
00:17:56,070 --> 00:17:54,640
are we using people who are worse than

608
00:17:56,470 --> 00:17:56,080
the people we're targeting you know are

609
00:17:59,750 --> 00:17:56,480
we

610
00:18:03,110 --> 00:17:59,760
smaller ones essentially right

611
00:18:03,830 --> 00:18:03,120
another point about uh muhammad hussein

612
00:18:05,590 --> 00:18:03,840
was

613
00:18:07,830 --> 00:18:05,600
you know he said to you when you visited

614
00:18:09,110 --> 00:18:07,840
him in jail his kids are now without a

615
00:18:11,510 --> 00:18:09,120
father

616
00:18:12,310 --> 00:18:11,520
growing up without guidance that's the

617
00:18:14,630 --> 00:18:12,320
kind of

618
00:18:15,990 --> 00:18:14,640
action that creates someone who wants to

619
00:18:18,549 --> 00:18:16,000
do damage to this government

620
00:18:19,750 --> 00:18:18,559
taking away someone's father you know

621
00:18:21,270 --> 00:18:19,760
that's what that's a

622
00:18:23,750 --> 00:18:21,280
you're going to want revenge for that

623
00:18:26,470 --> 00:18:23,760
not necessarily that his kids do but

624
00:18:27,909 --> 00:18:26,480
we we have to be careful of like uh what

625
00:18:29,270 --> 00:18:27,919
we're doing to people these are real

626
00:18:30,630 --> 00:18:29,280
lives

627
00:18:33,270 --> 00:18:30,640
it's a it's a good point to raise

628
00:18:34,870 --> 00:18:33,280
because it really raises a question of

629
00:18:37,190 --> 00:18:34,880
blowback you know what ultimately will

630
00:18:38,230 --> 00:18:37,200
happen as a an unintended consequence of

631
00:18:39,830 --> 00:18:38,240
these policies

632
00:18:42,470 --> 00:18:39,840
you know and certainly some of these men

633
00:18:43,590 --> 00:18:42,480
that we're sending away for 15 25 35

634
00:18:44,870 --> 00:18:43,600
years

635
00:18:46,549 --> 00:18:44,880
you know that were caught up in a sting

636
00:18:47,990 --> 00:18:46,559
operation on their own unable to commit

637
00:18:51,190 --> 00:18:48,000
acts of terrorism

638
00:18:53,430 --> 00:18:51,200
you know it it's not unreasonable to ask

639
00:18:54,870 --> 00:18:53,440
whether upon their release from jail in

640
00:18:56,230 --> 00:18:54,880
their 40s and their 50s

641
00:18:58,150 --> 00:18:56,240
they will be so angry that they will

642
00:18:59,909 --> 00:18:58,160
actually become terrorists that on their

643
00:19:01,270 --> 00:18:59,919
own 25 years ago they never could have

644
00:19:02,390 --> 00:19:01,280
become and i think that is

645
00:19:04,789 --> 00:19:02,400
one of the things that'll be really

646
00:19:05,750 --> 00:19:04,799
interesting to see and let's look at the

647
00:19:07,510 --> 00:19:05,760
other side of

648
00:19:09,110 --> 00:19:07,520
informants because there's also there's

649
00:19:11,029 --> 00:19:09,120
the criminal informants but there's also

650
00:19:12,630 --> 00:19:11,039
a lot of intimidation and blackmailing

651
00:19:14,390 --> 00:19:12,640
that goes into creating unwilling

652
00:19:16,710 --> 00:19:14,400
informants in the muslim community

653
00:19:18,630 --> 00:19:16,720
while using some type of various

654
00:19:20,470 --> 00:19:18,640
leverage to pressure them into finding

655
00:19:22,549 --> 00:19:20,480
something just to get the heat off of

656
00:19:24,070 --> 00:19:22,559
them right you know

657
00:19:25,669 --> 00:19:24,080
the best thing to compare this to in

658
00:19:27,029 --> 00:19:25,679
some ways but it's important to compare

659
00:19:30,150 --> 00:19:27,039
two because it's so different

660
00:19:31,830 --> 00:19:30,160
is how the fbi investigated you know

661
00:19:32,870 --> 00:19:31,840
organized crime in the 80s for example

662
00:19:34,789 --> 00:19:32,880
like when they were going after the

663
00:19:36,230 --> 00:19:34,799
italian mafia organizations

664
00:19:38,070 --> 00:19:36,240
in those cases the way they recruited

665
00:19:39,990 --> 00:19:38,080
informants was they looked for people

666
00:19:41,110 --> 00:19:40,000
who were you know the lower level mafia

667
00:19:42,870 --> 00:19:41,120
soldiers who were

668
00:19:44,310 --> 00:19:42,880
who are committing crimes minor ones

669
00:19:45,830 --> 00:19:44,320
like you know stealing a car

670
00:19:47,350 --> 00:19:45,840
and then you get that guy you bust him

671
00:19:48,630 --> 00:19:47,360
for stealing a car and you say to him

672
00:19:51,270 --> 00:19:48,640
you know if you work with us

673
00:19:51,669 --> 00:19:51,280
we can make that that stolen car theft

674
00:19:54,150 --> 00:19:51,679
charge

675
00:19:55,350 --> 00:19:54,160
go away um and you can you have to work

676
00:19:56,150 --> 00:19:55,360
with us as an informant and that's how

677
00:19:57,669 --> 00:19:56,160
they recruited

678
00:19:59,110 --> 00:19:57,679
these informants well if you're

679
00:20:00,230 --> 00:19:59,120
recruiting in the muslim community it's

680
00:20:01,750 --> 00:20:00,240
a lot different than recruiting from

681
00:20:04,310 --> 00:20:01,760
within an organized crime

682
00:20:05,350 --> 00:20:04,320
uh organization you know in these cases

683
00:20:06,789 --> 00:20:05,360
you know these are people who are

684
00:20:07,990 --> 00:20:06,799
law-abiding people going about their day

685
00:20:10,070 --> 00:20:08,000
working everyday jobs

686
00:20:11,270 --> 00:20:10,080
going to the mosque on friday you know

687
00:20:13,510 --> 00:20:11,280
you're not going to catch them

688
00:20:15,590 --> 00:20:13,520
stealing cars and so in this case the

689
00:20:16,230 --> 00:20:15,600
fbi needs to build up its capacity for

690
00:20:18,230 --> 00:20:16,240
intelligence

691
00:20:19,990 --> 00:20:18,240
in muslim communities and it does that

692
00:20:21,990 --> 00:20:20,000
by using what leverage it can

693
00:20:23,190 --> 00:20:22,000
and in the muslim community immigration

694
00:20:23,750 --> 00:20:23,200
tends to be the greatest form of

695
00:20:26,470 --> 00:20:23,760
leverage

696
00:20:27,990 --> 00:20:26,480
right so what we what we see is uh and

697
00:20:28,870 --> 00:20:28,000
what we've seen a number of cases is the

698
00:20:31,909 --> 00:20:28,880
fbi

699
00:20:33,029 --> 00:20:31,919
working very closely with ice using

700
00:20:35,430 --> 00:20:33,039
immigration and the threat of

701
00:20:36,950 --> 00:20:35,440
deportation as leverage to recruit

702
00:20:39,350 --> 00:20:36,960
informants you know so these are people

703
00:20:41,270 --> 00:20:39,360
who didn't violate any laws if they

704
00:20:43,750 --> 00:20:41,280
if they were facing possible deportation

705
00:20:46,470 --> 00:20:43,760
that's a civil issue not a criminal one

706
00:20:47,430 --> 00:20:46,480
and in these cases the fbi uses that to

707
00:20:49,590 --> 00:20:47,440
say well you know

708
00:20:51,830 --> 00:20:49,600
unless you work with us you're gonna you

709
00:20:53,430 --> 00:20:51,840
know have to be deported or they'll say

710
00:20:55,190 --> 00:20:53,440
hey you know we're we know you're

711
00:20:55,830 --> 00:20:55,200
looking to get your your family over

712
00:20:58,310 --> 00:20:55,840
from

713
00:20:59,590 --> 00:20:58,320
syria if you work with us we'll make

714
00:21:02,149 --> 00:20:59,600
that happen if you don't

715
00:21:03,510 --> 00:21:02,159
they probably won't be able to come over

716
00:21:04,149 --> 00:21:03,520
and that's an extraordinary form of

717
00:21:06,230 --> 00:21:04,159
leverage

718
00:21:08,070 --> 00:21:06,240
that the fbi is able to use and and it's

719
00:21:09,029 --> 00:21:08,080
been incredibly effective you know today

720
00:21:11,590 --> 00:21:09,039
the fbi has

721
00:21:13,750 --> 00:21:11,600
15 000 informants who are working for it

722
00:21:15,750 --> 00:21:13,760
it's just 10 times as many as it had

723
00:21:17,190 --> 00:21:15,760
under hoover and you know some of these

724
00:21:18,149 --> 00:21:17,200
informants are like i mentioned shahid

725
00:21:20,789 --> 00:21:18,159
hussein who

726
00:21:22,070 --> 00:21:20,799
was a criminal who you know played as an

727
00:21:22,870 --> 00:21:22,080
agent provocative for these sting

728
00:21:24,630 --> 00:21:22,880
operations

729
00:21:26,710 --> 00:21:24,640
others are providing information under

730
00:21:28,470 --> 00:21:26,720
duress um you know acting and sting

731
00:21:28,950 --> 00:21:28,480
operations under address as a result of

732
00:21:31,110 --> 00:21:28,960
these

733
00:21:33,190 --> 00:21:31,120
immigration threats you know to point

734
00:21:35,190 --> 00:21:33,200
out another one of his methods that

735
00:21:36,470 --> 00:21:35,200
that really does because i'm sure some

736
00:21:37,990 --> 00:21:36,480
people are like well you know it's got

737
00:21:39,110 --> 00:21:38,000
to be pretty tough to get mixed up in a

738
00:21:40,789 --> 00:21:39,120
terror plot but

739
00:21:42,950 --> 00:21:40,799
it really isn't i mean it even came out

740
00:21:43,669 --> 00:21:42,960
in court that he uses code words for

741
00:21:45,990 --> 00:21:43,679
missiles

742
00:21:47,110 --> 00:21:46,000
that he makes up that only he knows that

743
00:21:49,029 --> 00:21:47,120
the person he's talking to doesn't know

744
00:21:50,390 --> 00:21:49,039
he called it uh a chaudry

745
00:21:52,230 --> 00:21:50,400
you're like oh yeah i'm transporting

746
00:21:53,669 --> 00:21:52,240
some cauldries and you guys just like

747
00:21:54,230 --> 00:21:53,679
okay whatever like you're gonna give me

748
00:21:55,990 --> 00:21:54,240
fifty

749
00:21:57,669 --> 00:21:56,000
thousand dollars like you know and he

750
00:22:00,310 --> 00:21:57,679
was paying them back too it's just

751
00:22:01,669 --> 00:22:00,320
it's so unfortunate in the memo line

752
00:22:03,270 --> 00:22:01,679
there when he was paying them back he

753
00:22:04,470 --> 00:22:03,280
put you know loan repayment you know

754
00:22:05,750 --> 00:22:04,480
there were certainly evidences suggest

755
00:22:07,510 --> 00:22:05,760
he thought it was alone

756
00:22:09,510 --> 00:22:07,520
um there there was very little evidence

757
00:22:11,590 --> 00:22:09,520
to support the idea that

758
00:22:12,549 --> 00:22:11,600
the two defendants uh muhammad hussain

759
00:22:14,310 --> 00:22:12,559
and yasina ref

760
00:22:15,750 --> 00:22:14,320
knew what chowdhury meant you know it

761
00:22:17,270 --> 00:22:15,760
was clear that

762
00:22:18,710 --> 00:22:17,280
he was he was using that word but it was

763
00:22:19,590 --> 00:22:18,720
unclear that they even knew what

764
00:22:21,270 --> 00:22:19,600
chowdhury meant

765
00:22:22,950 --> 00:22:21,280
um and you know it also fit a pattern

766
00:22:25,029 --> 00:22:22,960
too you know later

767
00:22:26,310 --> 00:22:25,039
hussein that same informant was used in

768
00:22:27,669 --> 00:22:26,320
this new brick case that i mentioned

769
00:22:29,669 --> 00:22:27,679
earlier where these men were

770
00:22:30,870 --> 00:22:29,679
plotting to bomb synagogues in the bronx

771
00:22:33,190 --> 00:22:30,880
and in that case

772
00:22:34,950 --> 00:22:33,200
during during trial testimony it came

773
00:22:38,230 --> 00:22:34,960
out because on one of the recordings

774
00:22:39,990 --> 00:22:38,240
shahed hussein offers the men 250 000

775
00:22:41,110 --> 00:22:40,000
to carry forward with the plot and

776
00:22:41,990 --> 00:22:41,120
obviously that looks very bad on the

777
00:22:42,710 --> 00:22:42,000
government side you know you're

778
00:22:44,070 --> 00:22:42,720
basically offering

779
00:22:46,310 --> 00:22:44,080
you know bribing someone to go forward

780
00:22:48,950 --> 00:22:46,320
in a sting operation and uh

781
00:22:50,710 --> 00:22:48,960
hussein says well that was a code word

782
00:22:51,110 --> 00:22:50,720
and uh the the defense attorney asked

783
00:22:52,710 --> 00:22:51,120
them well

784
00:22:54,149 --> 00:22:52,720
who knew that code word and shahed

785
00:22:55,510 --> 00:22:54,159
hussein had to admit well he was the

786
00:22:56,710 --> 00:22:55,520
only one who knew that code word

787
00:22:58,390 --> 00:22:56,720
and so obviously it's not much of a code

788
00:22:59,430 --> 00:22:58,400
word if you're the only one who knows it

789
00:23:01,830 --> 00:22:59,440
and you know it was

790
00:23:03,909 --> 00:23:01,840
it was clear in both of these cases that

791
00:23:05,750 --> 00:23:03,919
hussein was doing and saying things

792
00:23:07,510 --> 00:23:05,760
whatever he needed to do to make a

793
00:23:09,990 --> 00:23:07,520
prosecutable case

794
00:23:10,549 --> 00:23:10,000
that to me that specific case was the

795
00:23:12,310 --> 00:23:10,559
most

796
00:23:13,909 --> 00:23:12,320
shocking but digging through all these

797
00:23:17,029 --> 00:23:13,919
documents and cases yourself what did

798
00:23:19,110 --> 00:23:17,039
you find most troubling or surprising

799
00:23:21,029 --> 00:23:19,120
you know in some of these cases what i

800
00:23:21,990 --> 00:23:21,039
found troubling was the fact that as i

801
00:23:24,390 --> 00:23:22,000
mentioned earlier that they

802
00:23:25,590 --> 00:23:24,400
used people who were worse than the

803
00:23:26,310 --> 00:23:25,600
people they were targeting you know for

804
00:23:28,630 --> 00:23:26,320
example they

805
00:23:30,390 --> 00:23:28,640
in seattle they used that child molester

806
00:23:31,990 --> 00:23:30,400
who ultimately targeted

807
00:23:33,990 --> 00:23:32,000
two men who were mentally ill one of

808
00:23:35,270 --> 00:23:34,000
them had schizoaffective disorder which

809
00:23:37,190 --> 00:23:35,280
means he had trouble distinguishing

810
00:23:38,470 --> 00:23:37,200
between reality and fantasy which

811
00:23:40,390 --> 00:23:38,480
obviously someone who

812
00:23:42,230 --> 00:23:40,400
uh is going to be very susceptible to

813
00:23:44,070 --> 00:23:42,240
the influence of an informant

814
00:23:45,990 --> 00:23:44,080
um but in other cases you know what i

815
00:23:48,310 --> 00:23:46,000
found so shocking was just

816
00:23:50,470 --> 00:23:48,320
how how how little the capacity was you

817
00:23:52,549 --> 00:23:50,480
know one of my one of my favorite cases

818
00:23:54,470 --> 00:23:52,559
uh for lack of a better term is this man

819
00:23:57,029 --> 00:23:54,480
named derek sharif and

820
00:23:57,750 --> 00:23:57,039
you know derek was this guy who lived in

821
00:23:59,750 --> 00:23:57,760
illinois

822
00:24:01,590 --> 00:23:59,760
and he recently converted to islam and

823
00:24:03,830 --> 00:24:01,600
his and his parents and his family

824
00:24:05,750 --> 00:24:03,840
had ostracized him for it and he was

825
00:24:07,350 --> 00:24:05,760
working at this video game store

826
00:24:09,110 --> 00:24:07,360
didn't have a place to live and his car

827
00:24:11,269 --> 00:24:09,120
had just broken down so derek was

828
00:24:12,630 --> 00:24:11,279
in like the worst possible situation you

829
00:24:14,549 --> 00:24:12,640
can possibly be

830
00:24:16,070 --> 00:24:14,559
and an informant comes to a video game

831
00:24:17,190 --> 00:24:16,080
store and says hey yeah i know

832
00:24:18,870 --> 00:24:17,200
i know you know you don't have a place

833
00:24:19,830 --> 00:24:18,880
to live you don't your car's broken down

834
00:24:21,590 --> 00:24:19,840
why don't you live with me

835
00:24:23,029 --> 00:24:21,600
you can use my car you know i've got

836
00:24:24,470 --> 00:24:23,039
food you can just stay with me

837
00:24:26,549 --> 00:24:24,480
and derek you know because it was the

838
00:24:27,909 --> 00:24:26,559
day before ramadan thinks this is a sign

839
00:24:29,750 --> 00:24:27,919
from god and goes and

840
00:24:31,029 --> 00:24:29,760
lives with this informant and over the

841
00:24:32,230 --> 00:24:31,039
course of months the informant

842
00:24:34,390 --> 00:24:32,240
encourages him to

843
00:24:35,669 --> 00:24:34,400
move forward in a plot to attack a

844
00:24:37,909 --> 00:24:35,679
shopping mall and this wasn't an

845
00:24:38,870 --> 00:24:37,919
idea that the informant came up with and

846
00:24:40,549 --> 00:24:38,880
so

847
00:24:42,470 --> 00:24:40,559
they talk about it and derek is saying

848
00:24:44,070 --> 00:24:42,480
some pretty hateful odious things and

849
00:24:45,590 --> 00:24:44,080
but the problem for the fbi's case was

850
00:24:46,390 --> 00:24:45,600
that they needed what's called an overt

851
00:24:47,909 --> 00:24:46,400
action they had

852
00:24:49,430 --> 00:24:47,919
they had to get him doing something that

853
00:24:50,149 --> 00:24:49,440
wasn't that was more than just talking

854
00:24:52,549 --> 00:24:50,159
about it

855
00:24:53,750 --> 00:24:52,559
and uh so so they decided well let's

856
00:24:55,190 --> 00:24:53,760
let's see if we can get him to buy

857
00:24:58,230 --> 00:24:55,200
grenades for the attack

858
00:24:59,830 --> 00:24:58,240
but the big problem for the fbi

859
00:25:01,830 --> 00:24:59,840
was that derek was flat broke he didn't

860
00:25:02,310 --> 00:25:01,840
have any money and so the informant says

861
00:25:03,750 --> 00:25:02,320
to him

862
00:25:05,510 --> 00:25:03,760
well you've got these old stereo

863
00:25:06,070 --> 00:25:05,520
speakers right but what if we took this

864
00:25:07,990 --> 00:25:06,080
to the

865
00:25:09,590 --> 00:25:08,000
the arms dealer and i think if we took

866
00:25:10,630 --> 00:25:09,600
it to him and said hey we'll give you

867
00:25:13,029 --> 00:25:10,640
the stereo speakers

868
00:25:14,390 --> 00:25:13,039
and you'll give us the five grenades

869
00:25:15,350 --> 00:25:14,400
he'll say fair trade

870
00:25:16,630 --> 00:25:15,360
and uh you know of course it's

871
00:25:17,430 --> 00:25:16,640
ridiculous on its face you know i don't

872
00:25:18,789 --> 00:25:17,440
know a lot about

873
00:25:20,310 --> 00:25:18,799
black market arm stealing but i don't

874
00:25:20,710 --> 00:25:20,320
think a arm dealer is going to accept

875
00:25:22,710 --> 00:25:20,720
two

876
00:25:24,549 --> 00:25:22,720
ratty old stereo speakers for no you

877
00:25:27,990 --> 00:25:24,559
need at least four

878
00:25:30,070 --> 00:25:28,000
right and so they end up going to uh the

879
00:25:31,990 --> 00:25:30,080
shopping mall and derek brings his two

880
00:25:33,669 --> 00:25:32,000
scenario speakers and hands them over to

881
00:25:35,430 --> 00:25:33,679
this undercover agent who's posing as an

882
00:25:36,870 --> 00:25:35,440
arms dealer and the undercover agent

883
00:25:39,269 --> 00:25:36,880
hands them back

884
00:25:40,070 --> 00:25:39,279
the grenades and uh the fbi rushes in

885
00:25:42,230 --> 00:25:40,080
and arrests him

886
00:25:43,590 --> 00:25:42,240
and ultimately he's convicted uh of

887
00:25:44,549 --> 00:25:43,600
conspiracy to use a weapon of mass

888
00:25:47,190 --> 00:25:44,559
destruction

889
00:25:48,149 --> 00:25:47,200
uh and is now serving 25 years in prison

890
00:25:49,909 --> 00:25:48,159
well obviously

891
00:25:51,669 --> 00:25:49,919
you know derek sharif on his own with

892
00:25:53,269 --> 00:25:51,679
his two spirit old stereo speakers

893
00:25:54,870 --> 00:25:53,279
never could have obtained the grenades

894
00:25:56,549 --> 00:25:54,880
never would have been able to move

895
00:25:58,630 --> 00:25:56,559
forward in a plot like this and so

896
00:26:00,149 --> 00:25:58,640
what i find most disturbing is are cases

897
00:26:02,149 --> 00:26:00,159
like that where

898
00:26:03,750 --> 00:26:02,159
ultimately men like derek sharif are

899
00:26:05,269 --> 00:26:03,760
convicted and sentenced

900
00:26:06,870 --> 00:26:05,279
according to sentencing guidelines that

901
00:26:10,149 --> 00:26:06,880
were designed for true

902
00:26:11,830 --> 00:26:10,159
capable terrorists so the fbi by

903
00:26:14,230 --> 00:26:11,840
empowering him by giving him access to

904
00:26:16,390 --> 00:26:14,240
these grenades ultimately puts him

905
00:26:17,830 --> 00:26:16,400
under sentencing guidelines that on his

906
00:26:19,350 --> 00:26:17,840
own he never could have committed a

907
00:26:20,950 --> 00:26:19,360
crime that would put him there and so

908
00:26:22,950 --> 00:26:20,960
you know to me that's a great example of

909
00:26:25,430 --> 00:26:22,960
the fbi really just empowering someone

910
00:26:26,870 --> 00:26:25,440
to become a terrorist who on his own you

911
00:26:28,149 --> 00:26:26,880
know was probably incapable of even

912
00:26:30,230 --> 00:26:28,159
minor crimes

913
00:26:31,750 --> 00:26:30,240
right and in regards to some of the

914
00:26:33,350 --> 00:26:31,760
misguided youth and

915
00:26:35,430 --> 00:26:33,360
mentally unstable there's a comment in

916
00:26:37,029 --> 00:26:35,440
the book made by one of the defense

917
00:26:39,029 --> 00:26:37,039
attorneys and he says something like

918
00:26:41,269 --> 00:26:39,039
this whole mess could have been avoided

919
00:26:43,029 --> 00:26:41,279
if the fbi counseled individuals rather

920
00:26:45,350 --> 00:26:43,039
than encouraging them and i thought wow

921
00:26:46,789 --> 00:26:45,360
it seems so simple doesn't it

922
00:26:48,149 --> 00:26:46,799
absolutely you know actually i'm in

923
00:26:49,669 --> 00:26:48,159
portland oregon right now and there's a

924
00:26:51,669 --> 00:26:49,679
trial going on involving this

925
00:26:53,269 --> 00:26:51,679
this man named muhammad muhammad and you

926
00:26:54,470 --> 00:26:53,279
know that's a great example of this this

927
00:26:56,310 --> 00:26:54,480
was a guy who

928
00:26:57,830 --> 00:26:56,320
you know espoused radical beliefs that

929
00:26:58,710 --> 00:26:57,840
he wanted to get involved in jihad

930
00:27:00,390 --> 00:26:58,720
somehow and

931
00:27:02,390 --> 00:27:00,400
these undercover agents came to him and

932
00:27:05,029 --> 00:27:02,400
said are you interested in you know

933
00:27:06,470 --> 00:27:05,039
do working on a plot with us and he says

934
00:27:08,549 --> 00:27:06,480
yes and he's and he talks about how he

935
00:27:10,310 --> 00:27:08,559
wants to bomb pioneer square in portland

936
00:27:11,990 --> 00:27:10,320
and uh the fbi agents ultimately give

937
00:27:13,510 --> 00:27:12,000
him everything he needs you know he had

938
00:27:15,430 --> 00:27:13,520
he has no he has no money he's about to

939
00:27:17,029 --> 00:27:15,440
be evicted from his apartment the fbi

940
00:27:18,950 --> 00:27:17,039
gives him i think three thousand dollars

941
00:27:19,430 --> 00:27:18,960
to pay his back rent so the eviction

942
00:27:23,669 --> 00:27:19,440
won't

943
00:27:25,430 --> 00:27:23,679
they then provide the bomb

944
00:27:27,190 --> 00:27:25,440
everything he needs they provide the car

945
00:27:28,630 --> 00:27:27,200
they provide everything and

946
00:27:30,389 --> 00:27:28,640
ultimately he moves forward in this plot

947
00:27:31,909 --> 00:27:30,399
but that's an example of this kid

948
00:27:33,669 --> 00:27:31,919
he was 19 at the time when this thing

949
00:27:33,990 --> 00:27:33,679
operation started who probably could

950
00:27:35,750 --> 00:27:34,000
have just

951
00:27:37,110 --> 00:27:35,760
been scared out of doing something like

952
00:27:38,470 --> 00:27:37,120
this probably

953
00:27:41,110 --> 00:27:38,480
you know in the middle of the sting

954
00:27:42,470 --> 00:27:41,120
operation if the fbi said boo we got you

955
00:27:43,909 --> 00:27:42,480
you know what are you doing here instead

956
00:27:44,630 --> 00:27:43,919
of letting him carry forward with it the

957
00:27:45,750 --> 00:27:44,640
whole time

958
00:27:46,710 --> 00:27:45,760
i don't think this is a guy who

959
00:27:48,310 --> 00:27:46,720
necessarily would have become a

960
00:27:50,070 --> 00:27:48,320
terrorist but right you know the fbi did

961
00:27:52,710 --> 00:27:50,080
these elaborate sting operations

962
00:27:53,590 --> 00:27:52,720
you know puts you know goes all the way

963
00:27:55,430 --> 00:27:53,600
and gets them to

964
00:27:57,350 --> 00:27:55,440
commit these fantastical acts you know

965
00:27:59,029 --> 00:27:57,360
these ex these these acts of terrorism

966
00:28:00,710 --> 00:27:59,039
that if they were real

967
00:28:01,909 --> 00:28:00,720
would be horrific but when they're able

968
00:28:03,750 --> 00:28:01,919
to bring them to a jury they're just

969
00:28:04,149 --> 00:28:03,760
like so overwhelming that in most cases

970
00:28:08,070 --> 00:28:04,159
they're

971
00:28:09,750 --> 00:28:08,080
cases well another side is uh

972
00:28:11,110 --> 00:28:09,760
you know the cozy relationship between

973
00:28:12,630 --> 00:28:11,120
government and the media and one of my

974
00:28:13,830 --> 00:28:12,640
favorite examples in the book of how

975
00:28:15,830 --> 00:28:13,840
that works is

976
00:28:17,830 --> 00:28:15,840
the case of the liberty city seven so

977
00:28:20,870 --> 00:28:17,840
what was so sketchy about the uh

978
00:28:22,230 --> 00:28:20,880
the timing of that event right so you

979
00:28:23,669 --> 00:28:22,240
know this this was under the

980
00:28:25,590 --> 00:28:23,679
administration of george w bush it would

981
00:28:27,669 --> 00:28:25,600
have been his second term in office

982
00:28:29,269 --> 00:28:27,679
and you know as you may recall that the

983
00:28:30,149 --> 00:28:29,279
new york times had written a number of

984
00:28:32,630 --> 00:28:30,159
stories about

985
00:28:34,310 --> 00:28:32,640
government overreach in spying on

986
00:28:36,549 --> 00:28:34,320
law-abiding citizens

987
00:28:37,590 --> 00:28:36,559
um using powers that were given to the

988
00:28:41,110 --> 00:28:37,600
bush administration

989
00:28:42,470 --> 00:28:41,120
after 9 11. and you know one example of

990
00:28:43,510 --> 00:28:42,480
that you know you may recall one of the

991
00:28:45,510 --> 00:28:43,520
examples was

992
00:28:47,029 --> 00:28:45,520
you know white warrantless wiretapping

993
00:28:47,590 --> 00:28:47,039
being able to listen in on conversations

994
00:28:53,430 --> 00:28:47,600
without

995
00:28:54,710 --> 00:28:53,440
in october of 2006 the new york times

996
00:28:55,110 --> 00:28:54,720
was about to release this story about

997
00:28:56,630 --> 00:28:55,120
how

998
00:28:58,630 --> 00:28:56,640
the bush administration was also getting

999
00:29:00,389 --> 00:28:58,640
access to bank records without

1000
00:29:02,070 --> 00:29:00,399
without warrants with the same type of

1001
00:29:02,950 --> 00:29:02,080
violation and they've worked together

1002
00:29:04,549 --> 00:29:02,960
for days

1003
00:29:06,070 --> 00:29:04,559
with the bush administration saying you

1004
00:29:06,870 --> 00:29:06,080
know this is the story that's coming out

1005
00:29:08,310 --> 00:29:06,880
the new york times

1006
00:29:09,990 --> 00:29:08,320
really did due diligence and telling

1007
00:29:11,590 --> 00:29:10,000
them this is what we have what's your

1008
00:29:12,070 --> 00:29:11,600
response and this is the day it's coming

1009
00:29:14,230 --> 00:29:12,080
out

1010
00:29:15,269 --> 00:29:14,240
well the the day before that story is

1011
00:29:17,590 --> 00:29:15,279
about to come out the

1012
00:29:18,389 --> 00:29:17,600
the the doj announced the the

1013
00:29:20,870 --> 00:29:18,399
prosecution

1014
00:29:22,070 --> 00:29:20,880
uh the indictment against seven guys in

1015
00:29:24,470 --> 00:29:22,080
liberty city which is

1016
00:29:25,669 --> 00:29:24,480
the poor section of miami and the

1017
00:29:27,590 --> 00:29:25,679
accusation was that

1018
00:29:29,669 --> 00:29:27,600
it was just over the top to begin with

1019
00:29:30,870 --> 00:29:29,679
you know alberto gonzalez said that

1020
00:29:32,549 --> 00:29:30,880
these seven guys

1021
00:29:33,909 --> 00:29:32,559
were going to declare ground war on the

1022
00:29:35,510 --> 00:29:33,919
united states of america which

1023
00:29:37,190 --> 00:29:35,520
obviously on its face is ridiculous it's

1024
00:29:38,310 --> 00:29:37,200
seven guys in the port in the poor

1025
00:29:40,230 --> 00:29:38,320
section of miami

1026
00:29:42,310 --> 00:29:40,240
and then the other accusation was that

1027
00:29:44,789 --> 00:29:42,320
they were plotting to bomb

1028
00:29:45,510 --> 00:29:44,799
the sears tower in chicago as well as

1029
00:29:55,029 --> 00:29:45,520
the

1030
00:29:58,070 --> 00:29:55,039
connection was

1031
00:30:00,149 --> 00:29:58,080
an undercover informant who um was

1032
00:30:01,750 --> 00:30:00,159
posing as an al-qaeda operative and who

1033
00:30:03,510 --> 00:30:01,760
was offering the guys fifty thousand

1034
00:30:05,909 --> 00:30:03,520
dollars to move forward in the plot

1035
00:30:07,350 --> 00:30:05,919
and yet the media you know immediately

1036
00:30:09,510 --> 00:30:07,360
portrayed this as

1037
00:30:10,549 --> 00:30:09,520
a dangerous plot and ultimately where it

1038
00:30:11,510 --> 00:30:10,559
was effective for the bush

1039
00:30:13,430 --> 00:30:11,520
administration

1040
00:30:15,510 --> 00:30:13,440
was that by by announcing it on the day

1041
00:30:17,029 --> 00:30:15,520
it did that pushed below the full this

1042
00:30:17,669 --> 00:30:17,039
very important new york times story

1043
00:30:20,230 --> 00:30:17,679
about

1044
00:30:22,230 --> 00:30:20,240
the bush administration's use of uh you

1045
00:30:24,310 --> 00:30:22,240
know warrantless searches on

1046
00:30:25,909 --> 00:30:24,320
bank records and you know ultimately it

1047
00:30:26,950 --> 00:30:25,919
took three trials to convict the liberty

1048
00:30:29,110 --> 00:30:26,960
city seven

1049
00:30:30,470 --> 00:30:29,120
um they only convicted five of the seven

1050
00:30:31,350 --> 00:30:30,480
you know several of the guys got really

1051
00:30:32,950 --> 00:30:31,360
short sentences

1052
00:30:34,630 --> 00:30:32,960
you know i should say short but i said

1053
00:30:36,389 --> 00:30:34,640
that relative to terrorism sentences you

1054
00:30:38,230 --> 00:30:36,399
know seven seven years or so

1055
00:30:39,430 --> 00:30:38,240
um and either guys that on their own

1056
00:30:40,070 --> 00:30:39,440
never had the capacity to commit

1057
00:30:41,669 --> 00:30:40,080
terrorism

1058
00:30:43,510 --> 00:30:41,679
you know never could have without the

1059
00:30:44,710 --> 00:30:43,520
informant got involved in a plot

1060
00:30:46,470 --> 00:30:44,720
involving al-qaeda because they were

1061
00:30:46,870 --> 00:30:46,480
never actually connected to al-qaeda and

1062
00:30:49,029 --> 00:30:46,880
yet

1063
00:30:50,710 --> 00:30:49,039
the media in many ways you know kind of

1064
00:30:52,630 --> 00:30:50,720
parroted exactly what the federal

1065
00:30:53,990 --> 00:30:52,640
government wanted it to in these cases

1066
00:30:55,590 --> 00:30:54,000
and that's that's true of a lot of these

1067
00:30:56,149 --> 00:30:55,600
terrorism cases you know it's true

1068
00:30:57,909 --> 00:30:56,159
almost

1069
00:30:59,830 --> 00:30:57,919
in every kind of crime case you know

1070
00:31:01,110 --> 00:30:59,840
early on when a when a crime including

1071
00:31:02,630 --> 00:31:01,120
terrorism is announced

1072
00:31:04,149 --> 00:31:02,640
the government has a has an efficient

1073
00:31:05,509 --> 00:31:04,159
way of kind of controlling the narrative

1074
00:31:07,190 --> 00:31:05,519
because that first story

1075
00:31:08,310 --> 00:31:07,200
is often you know the only access to

1076
00:31:09,110 --> 00:31:08,320
information you have comes from the

1077
00:31:11,909 --> 00:31:09,120
government

1078
00:31:13,509 --> 00:31:11,919
and um and and and for that reason you

1079
00:31:16,070 --> 00:31:13,519
know the media has been

1080
00:31:17,269 --> 00:31:16,080
very kind of lap dog-ish in its response

1081
00:31:18,549 --> 00:31:17,279
to these types of

1082
00:31:20,789 --> 00:31:18,559
cases you know when they're announced by

1083
00:31:22,870 --> 00:31:20,799
doj the media portrays it

1084
00:31:24,549 --> 00:31:22,880
almost you know instinctually as here's

1085
00:31:26,470 --> 00:31:24,559
another threat and it was thwarted

1086
00:31:27,590 --> 00:31:26,480
and thanks to like fbi agents who were

1087
00:31:29,669 --> 00:31:27,600
vigilant and

1088
00:31:30,950 --> 00:31:29,679
only later if it all kind of comes back

1089
00:31:32,470 --> 00:31:30,960
and says well wait a minute

1090
00:31:33,669 --> 00:31:32,480
were these guys really terrorists can

1091
00:31:35,269 --> 00:31:33,679
they really be terrorists if they were

1092
00:31:36,870 --> 00:31:35,279
never in contact with al qaeda

1093
00:31:39,110 --> 00:31:36,880
you know the only person who was

1094
00:31:40,549 --> 00:31:39,120
seemingly the terrorist in it

1095
00:31:42,549 --> 00:31:40,559
was the undercover operative who was

1096
00:31:43,350 --> 00:31:42,559
posing as a terrorist and i think

1097
00:31:45,990 --> 00:31:43,360
ultimately

1098
00:31:47,269 --> 00:31:46,000
we are seeing you know slowly a shift in

1099
00:31:48,870 --> 00:31:47,279
this conversation

1100
00:31:50,310 --> 00:31:48,880
um i'd like to think my reporting has

1101
00:31:51,350 --> 00:31:50,320
played some role in this but you know

1102
00:31:53,350 --> 00:31:51,360
for example like

1103
00:31:55,110 --> 00:31:53,360
the when quasi novice the the man who

1104
00:31:57,029 --> 00:31:55,120
was accused of applying to bomb the

1105
00:31:58,630 --> 00:31:57,039
federal reserve building in new york

1106
00:32:00,389 --> 00:31:58,640
this past october

1107
00:32:02,070 --> 00:32:00,399
with the involvement of an undercover

1108
00:32:03,269 --> 00:32:02,080
agent you know the fifth paragraph of

1109
00:32:04,950 --> 00:32:03,279
that story was a

1110
00:32:06,870 --> 00:32:04,960
a rather meaty explanation for the new

1111
00:32:08,630 --> 00:32:06,880
york times of the the criticism

1112
00:32:10,470 --> 00:32:08,640
of these cases and we weren't seeing

1113
00:32:11,750 --> 00:32:10,480
that before you know the previous six

1114
00:32:12,630 --> 00:32:11,760
years of these cases we weren't seeing

1115
00:32:14,549 --> 00:32:12,640
that type of

1116
00:32:16,230 --> 00:32:14,559
awareness by the media and my hope is

1117
00:32:17,590 --> 00:32:16,240
that eventually you know

1118
00:32:19,190 --> 00:32:17,600
this this conversation will shift

1119
00:32:20,870 --> 00:32:19,200
further and the media will be more

1120
00:32:22,950 --> 00:32:20,880
aggressive in questioning

1121
00:32:24,389 --> 00:32:22,960
the fbi and the doj about the efficacy

1122
00:32:26,310 --> 00:32:24,399
of these types of cases

1123
00:32:28,230 --> 00:32:26,320
of course yeah you got to hope what's

1124
00:32:30,389 --> 00:32:28,240
the state of the fbi's

1125
00:32:31,990 --> 00:32:30,399
terror factory today do you see these

1126
00:32:35,430 --> 00:32:32,000
practices dying down at

1127
00:32:37,350 --> 00:32:35,440
all like since 9 11. no

1128
00:32:39,509 --> 00:32:37,360
there really right now is very little

1129
00:32:40,470 --> 00:32:39,519
incentive for the fbi to pull back on

1130
00:32:42,149 --> 00:32:40,480
these practices

1131
00:32:44,389 --> 00:32:42,159
and and the reason for that is is really

1132
00:32:45,990 --> 00:32:44,399
twofold the the the primary reason is

1133
00:32:47,350 --> 00:32:46,000
that this is a bureaucratic

1134
00:32:49,110 --> 00:32:47,360
problem in some ways as i describe in

1135
00:32:50,870 --> 00:32:49,120
the book you know every year the fbi

1136
00:32:52,310 --> 00:32:50,880
gets three billion dollars to fight

1137
00:32:53,909 --> 00:32:52,320
terrorism and that's the largest part of

1138
00:32:54,870 --> 00:32:53,919
its budget that's that's more money than

1139
00:32:57,750 --> 00:32:54,880
they receive

1140
00:32:59,590 --> 00:32:57,760
for organized crime for financial fraud

1141
00:33:01,990 --> 00:32:59,600
for other areas that were traditionally

1142
00:33:03,430 --> 00:33:02,000
the focus of the fbi prior to 9 11. and

1143
00:33:05,110 --> 00:33:03,440
so they can't

1144
00:33:06,789 --> 00:33:05,120
every year spend 3 billion on

1145
00:33:08,310 --> 00:33:06,799
counter-terrorism and come back to

1146
00:33:09,909 --> 00:33:08,320
congress and say hey guys

1147
00:33:11,509 --> 00:33:09,919
we spent your 3 billion dollars and we

1148
00:33:13,509 --> 00:33:11,519
didn't find any terrorists you know

1149
00:33:15,669 --> 00:33:13,519
these these sting operations are a very

1150
00:33:17,509 --> 00:33:15,679
effective mechanism for the fbi

1151
00:33:18,710 --> 00:33:17,519
to say hey we spent your three billion

1152
00:33:20,230 --> 00:33:18,720
dollars and look what we found look at

1153
00:33:20,710 --> 00:33:20,240
this terror plot we poured it look at

1154
00:33:23,269 --> 00:33:20,720
the

1155
00:33:24,149 --> 00:33:23,279
threat that exists and you know it it

1156
00:33:26,950 --> 00:33:24,159
it's it's that

1157
00:33:28,950 --> 00:33:26,960
you know it's really a matter of kind of

1158
00:33:30,389 --> 00:33:28,960
focusing resources on a problem and

1159
00:33:32,230 --> 00:33:30,399
finding more problems you know and if

1160
00:33:34,470 --> 00:33:32,240
you focus three billion dollars of the

1161
00:33:36,070 --> 00:33:34,480
fbi's resources in any era you'd find

1162
00:33:38,070 --> 00:33:36,080
you know all kinds of problems depending

1163
00:33:39,430 --> 00:33:38,080
on the area you focus on and the other

1164
00:33:41,430 --> 00:33:39,440
issue that's that's really involved in

1165
00:33:44,149 --> 00:33:41,440
the fbi is that they have a near perfect

1166
00:33:44,549 --> 00:33:44,159
record of conviction on these trials um

1167
00:33:46,149 --> 00:33:44,559
so

1168
00:33:47,830 --> 00:33:46,159
you know the only real check for the fbi

1169
00:33:49,269 --> 00:33:47,840
in these cases is for the courts to

1170
00:33:50,070 --> 00:33:49,279
throw them out for there to be lots of

1171
00:33:52,070 --> 00:33:50,080
acquittals

1172
00:33:53,190 --> 00:33:52,080
and that would cause a re-examination of

1173
00:33:54,789 --> 00:33:53,200
these policies

1174
00:33:56,230 --> 00:33:54,799
but right now you know of these cases

1175
00:33:59,190 --> 00:33:56,240
there's a high degree

1176
00:34:00,789 --> 00:33:59,200
of guilty pleas given the the very long

1177
00:34:01,909 --> 00:34:00,799
sentences that that come as part of the

1178
00:34:04,149 --> 00:34:01,919
mandatory minimums

1179
00:34:05,269 --> 00:34:04,159
and then the other is that you know in

1180
00:34:07,430 --> 00:34:05,279
so far there have been

1181
00:34:09,349 --> 00:34:07,440
10 defendants who have argued entrapment

1182
00:34:11,750 --> 00:34:09,359
and they've so far been

1183
00:34:14,069 --> 00:34:11,760
unable to win on that defense the 11th

1184
00:34:15,750 --> 00:34:14,079
one mohamed mohamed here in portland

1185
00:34:18,389 --> 00:34:15,760
his trial is ongoing and he's also

1186
00:34:20,470 --> 00:34:18,399
arguing entrapment but you know so far

1187
00:34:22,310 --> 00:34:20,480
the the fbi and the doj have yeah they

1188
00:34:24,470 --> 00:34:22,320
said near perfect records of conviction

1189
00:34:26,069 --> 00:34:24,480
and and have had little reason to worry

1190
00:34:27,669 --> 00:34:26,079
that these cases will be thrown out for

1191
00:34:29,669 --> 00:34:27,679
entrapment

1192
00:34:31,349 --> 00:34:29,679
well like you pointed out the fbi gets

1193
00:34:32,230 --> 00:34:31,359
three billion dollars a year to fight

1194
00:34:33,909 --> 00:34:32,240
terrorism and

1195
00:34:35,589 --> 00:34:33,919
you know there are some estimates that

1196
00:34:37,030 --> 00:34:35,599
say that it would take about two billion

1197
00:34:39,430 --> 00:34:37,040
dollars a year

1198
00:34:40,950 --> 00:34:39,440
to end poverty i mean wouldn't bringing

1199
00:34:42,869 --> 00:34:40,960
citizens citizens to the war

1200
00:34:44,069 --> 00:34:42,879
of the world up to a sustainable level

1201
00:34:47,589 --> 00:34:44,079
of life do more to end

1202
00:34:50,629 --> 00:34:48,790
that's possible good question i mean to

1203
00:34:51,909 --> 00:34:50,639
me if you have something to lose

1204
00:34:53,909 --> 00:34:51,919
you're not going to get involved in this

1205
00:34:55,030 --> 00:34:53,919
the people who do are poor down on their

1206
00:34:57,109 --> 00:34:55,040
luck they want

1207
00:34:59,190 --> 00:34:57,119
excitement or attention but if everybody

1208
00:35:00,950 --> 00:34:59,200
had you know the basic necessities

1209
00:35:03,030 --> 00:35:00,960
covered like why would you risk that

1210
00:35:05,510 --> 00:35:03,040
jail has to be worse than your life you

1211
00:35:06,790 --> 00:35:05,520
know and in some cases jail's not

1212
00:35:08,950 --> 00:35:06,800
i mean certainly the the people that are

1213
00:35:10,470 --> 00:35:08,960
caught up in these sting operations

1214
00:35:11,589 --> 00:35:10,480
support that idea because these are

1215
00:35:13,349 --> 00:35:11,599
these are not people who are living

1216
00:35:15,030 --> 00:35:13,359
comfortable lives

1217
00:35:16,390 --> 00:35:15,040
with a good job and in a house with a

1218
00:35:17,589 --> 00:35:16,400
picket fence and a family

1219
00:35:19,510 --> 00:35:17,599
you know these are people very much on

1220
00:35:20,950 --> 00:35:19,520
the fringes of society who you know

1221
00:35:23,430 --> 00:35:20,960
don't have many economic

1222
00:35:25,190 --> 00:35:23,440
economic resources in most cases are are

1223
00:35:27,430 --> 00:35:25,200
very poorly educated

1224
00:35:28,310 --> 00:35:27,440
um and just don't have a great outlook

1225
00:35:30,310 --> 00:35:28,320
on life

1226
00:35:31,910 --> 00:35:30,320
because of their circumstances and you

1227
00:35:33,829 --> 00:35:31,920
know that's in part why they're

1228
00:35:35,670 --> 00:35:33,839
susceptible to this type of stuff either

1229
00:35:36,950 --> 00:35:35,680
you know for their for their own hatred

1230
00:35:38,310 --> 00:35:36,960
you know in the case of the new york

1231
00:35:39,750 --> 00:35:38,320
four that i mentioned earlier

1232
00:35:41,589 --> 00:35:39,760
you know this guy was hateful and

1233
00:35:43,349 --> 00:35:41,599
anti-semitic um

1234
00:35:44,870 --> 00:35:43,359
you know in part because he had this

1235
00:35:46,630 --> 00:35:44,880
life where he spent you know

1236
00:35:48,630 --> 00:35:46,640
an early part of his life in jail for

1237
00:35:50,710 --> 00:35:48,640
for dealing crack cocaine

1238
00:35:51,829 --> 00:35:50,720
he then worked at walmart and had very

1239
00:35:54,069 --> 00:35:51,839
little um

1240
00:35:55,750 --> 00:35:54,079
you know in the way of economic power

1241
00:35:57,589 --> 00:35:55,760
and in so many ways had been

1242
00:35:59,430 --> 00:35:57,599
disenfranchised and so here you have

1243
00:36:01,270 --> 00:35:59,440
this informant who comes to him and says

1244
00:36:02,710 --> 00:36:01,280
hey i can make you a big man don't you

1245
00:36:04,550 --> 00:36:02,720
want to be a big man like

1246
00:36:06,150 --> 00:36:04,560
get involved in this terror plot and a

1247
00:36:06,390 --> 00:36:06,160
guy like that is susceptible but you

1248
00:36:08,310 --> 00:36:06,400
know

1249
00:36:09,910 --> 00:36:08,320
someone like you or me someone comes to

1250
00:36:10,950 --> 00:36:09,920
us and says i can make you a big

1251
00:36:12,310 --> 00:36:10,960
big man you want to get into all

1252
00:36:13,589 --> 00:36:12,320
parapleg you know we're probably saying

1253
00:36:14,950 --> 00:36:13,599
get out of here and we're calling the

1254
00:36:15,670 --> 00:36:14,960
police but there are going to be those

1255
00:36:17,430 --> 00:36:15,680
people

1256
00:36:18,710 --> 00:36:17,440
who um you know are going to be

1257
00:36:20,069 --> 00:36:18,720
susceptible in that way

1258
00:36:21,990 --> 00:36:20,079
and those are the people that are really

1259
00:36:23,270 --> 00:36:22,000
being pulled into these sting operations

1260
00:36:25,109 --> 00:36:23,280
you know there was actually a judge who

1261
00:36:26,390 --> 00:36:25,119
oversaw one of these sting trials and

1262
00:36:28,630 --> 00:36:26,400
i thought she had a really great quote

1263
00:36:30,310 --> 00:36:28,640
that i quoted in the book which is

1264
00:36:32,150 --> 00:36:30,320
that you know these guys are so

1265
00:36:33,510 --> 00:36:32,160
buffoonish that if there really were

1266
00:36:34,150 --> 00:36:33,520
al-qaeda terrorists without the united

1267
00:36:35,510 --> 00:36:34,160
states

1268
00:36:37,030 --> 00:36:35,520
wanting to recruit people to commit to

1269
00:36:38,550 --> 00:36:37,040
acts of terrorism they probably wouldn't

1270
00:36:39,750 --> 00:36:38,560
even bothered with these guys you know

1271
00:36:40,550 --> 00:36:39,760
and i think that's that's a great

1272
00:36:41,990 --> 00:36:40,560
example because

1273
00:36:43,510 --> 00:36:42,000
these guys are a buffoonish and it's

1274
00:36:44,310 --> 00:36:43,520
really only the fbi through these sting

1275
00:36:46,150 --> 00:36:44,320
operations

1276
00:36:48,230 --> 00:36:46,160
that would even care to empower someone

1277
00:36:49,750 --> 00:36:48,240
like that to become a terrorist

1278
00:36:51,430 --> 00:36:49,760
well to bring this forward a little bit

1279
00:36:53,109 --> 00:36:51,440
it seems like

1280
00:36:55,270 --> 00:36:53,119
you know like with the case of the

1281
00:36:57,670 --> 00:36:55,280
liberty city seven that situation

1282
00:36:58,550 --> 00:36:57,680
it seems like the government is in this

1283
00:37:00,390 --> 00:36:58,560
pattern of

1284
00:37:02,470 --> 00:37:00,400
eroding some civil liberties getting a

1285
00:37:04,550 --> 00:37:02,480
little more aggressive and spying

1286
00:37:06,390 --> 00:37:04,560
and then it raises the public's eyebrow

1287
00:37:09,030 --> 00:37:06,400
and then all of a sudden that action

1288
00:37:10,230 --> 00:37:09,040
conveniently is justified with some

1289
00:37:12,390 --> 00:37:10,240
foiled plot

1290
00:37:14,150 --> 00:37:12,400
you know with ndaa a lot of people are

1291
00:37:15,910 --> 00:37:14,160
wary that government media are pushing

1292
00:37:17,990 --> 00:37:15,920
to blur the lines between

1293
00:37:19,990 --> 00:37:18,000
a real terrorist and say a protester or

1294
00:37:21,349 --> 00:37:20,000
in your case a real investigative

1295
00:37:22,710 --> 00:37:21,359
journalist some journalists are really

1296
00:37:24,069 --> 00:37:22,720
worried about that do you have any

1297
00:37:26,230 --> 00:37:24,079
thoughts there

1298
00:37:27,910 --> 00:37:26,240
i mean i think as far as the definition

1299
00:37:29,829 --> 00:37:27,920
of terrorism i mean one of the cases i

1300
00:37:32,069 --> 00:37:29,839
try to make in the book is that

1301
00:37:33,430 --> 00:37:32,079
we really have kind of bastardized and

1302
00:37:35,510 --> 00:37:33,440
distorted this word

1303
00:37:37,109 --> 00:37:35,520
so much you know these laws that were

1304
00:37:38,630 --> 00:37:37,119
written after 9 11

1305
00:37:40,630 --> 00:37:38,640
and before 9 11 that you know such as

1306
00:37:42,470 --> 00:37:40,640
the material support laws you know

1307
00:37:43,750 --> 00:37:42,480
these were laws intended for people that

1308
00:37:45,670 --> 00:37:43,760
were connected to

1309
00:37:47,430 --> 00:37:45,680
sophisticated international

1310
00:37:48,230 --> 00:37:47,440
organizations that had the means and the

1311
00:37:50,630 --> 00:37:48,240
know-how

1312
00:37:52,390 --> 00:37:50,640
to bomb a plane for example or obama

1313
00:37:53,270 --> 00:37:52,400
building or commit some horrific act of

1314
00:37:55,270 --> 00:37:53,280
terrorism

1315
00:37:56,310 --> 00:37:55,280
but you know through the evolution of

1316
00:37:58,230 --> 00:37:56,320
these cases

1317
00:37:59,430 --> 00:37:58,240
you know we're describing as terrorists

1318
00:38:01,030 --> 00:37:59,440
people that are just

1319
00:38:02,790 --> 00:38:01,040
kind of buffoonish and on the edges of

1320
00:38:04,870 --> 00:38:02,800
society and on their own

1321
00:38:05,829 --> 00:38:04,880
who couldn't become terrorism terrorists

1322
00:38:08,069 --> 00:38:05,839
and so i think

1323
00:38:09,589 --> 00:38:08,079
you know it's hard to know you know what

1324
00:38:10,790 --> 00:38:09,599
a terrorist is any longer because it's

1325
00:38:12,230 --> 00:38:10,800
been so distorted

1326
00:38:14,310 --> 00:38:12,240
and you know i think we can you can see

1327
00:38:15,190 --> 00:38:14,320
you can see the same in in similar cases

1328
00:38:16,630 --> 00:38:15,200
that aren't

1329
00:38:18,470 --> 00:38:16,640
related to islamic terrorism you know

1330
00:38:19,990 --> 00:38:18,480
we've had a number of prosecutions

1331
00:38:21,030 --> 00:38:20,000
involving environmental activists and

1332
00:38:22,710 --> 00:38:21,040
people on the left

1333
00:38:24,150 --> 00:38:22,720
you know the the nato ford for example

1334
00:38:26,390 --> 00:38:24,160
in chicago or these

1335
00:38:27,910 --> 00:38:26,400
these seven guys who plotted to you know

1336
00:38:29,109 --> 00:38:27,920
these so-called anarchists in cleveland

1337
00:38:31,030 --> 00:38:29,119
who plotted

1338
00:38:32,310 --> 00:38:31,040
a bridge over the cuyahoga river you

1339
00:38:33,670 --> 00:38:32,320
know these were guys you know one of

1340
00:38:35,510 --> 00:38:33,680
whom was mentally ill

1341
00:38:36,790 --> 00:38:35,520
who had no capacity on their own and it

1342
00:38:38,150 --> 00:38:36,800
was an informant who

1343
00:38:39,829 --> 00:38:38,160
provided them with the bomb that they

1344
00:38:42,150 --> 00:38:39,839
needed to set up the bridge

1345
00:38:43,109 --> 00:38:42,160
and you know we're now portraying them

1346
00:38:45,510 --> 00:38:43,119
as terrorists

1347
00:38:46,710 --> 00:38:45,520
and i i think what the media has done or

1348
00:38:49,750 --> 00:38:46,720
has allowed to happen

1349
00:38:50,710 --> 00:38:49,760
is for the is to really abduct to the

1350
00:38:52,870 --> 00:38:50,720
government

1351
00:38:54,710 --> 00:38:52,880
the role of defining what a terrorist is

1352
00:38:56,790 --> 00:38:54,720
and who a terrorist is so when

1353
00:38:58,390 --> 00:38:56,800
the fbi and the doj bring charges and

1354
00:39:00,790 --> 00:38:58,400
they say this man's a terrorist

1355
00:39:01,670 --> 00:39:00,800
the the media is happily to report you

1356
00:39:03,510 --> 00:39:01,680
know so-and-so

1357
00:39:04,870 --> 00:39:03,520
accused of you know terrorism and you

1358
00:39:07,829 --> 00:39:04,880
know suspected terrorists

1359
00:39:09,910 --> 00:39:07,839
and his name and what we don't we do see

1360
00:39:11,670 --> 00:39:09,920
some of is a real double standard we see

1361
00:39:13,430 --> 00:39:11,680
you know for example people charged with

1362
00:39:14,870 --> 00:39:13,440
islamic terrorism people on the left

1363
00:39:16,870 --> 00:39:14,880
environmental activists

1364
00:39:18,150 --> 00:39:16,880
so-called anarchists all being labeled

1365
00:39:19,829 --> 00:39:18,160
as terrorists but then

1366
00:39:21,829 --> 00:39:19,839
you know when they're sovereign citizens

1367
00:39:23,589 --> 00:39:21,839
for example or white supremacists

1368
00:39:25,270 --> 00:39:23,599
you know involved in plots that are

1369
00:39:26,870 --> 00:39:25,280
ultimately convicted

1370
00:39:29,510 --> 00:39:26,880
are only brought to court by doj and the

1371
00:39:30,710 --> 00:39:29,520
fbi we're not seeing that label applied

1372
00:39:32,550 --> 00:39:30,720
and you know i think that makes that's

1373
00:39:32,950 --> 00:39:32,560
what makes it even more confusing like

1374
00:39:34,950 --> 00:39:32,960
how

1375
00:39:36,790 --> 00:39:34,960
you know i'm not i if i was brought up

1376
00:39:38,230 --> 00:39:36,800
to testify to someone and they said

1377
00:39:40,069 --> 00:39:38,240
can you describe what a terrorist is

1378
00:39:41,670 --> 00:39:40,079
today you know based on the last 10

1379
00:39:42,069 --> 00:39:41,680
years worth of terrorism prosecutions in

1380
00:39:43,670 --> 00:39:42,079
the united

1381
00:39:45,190 --> 00:39:43,680
states i really would have a hard time

1382
00:39:47,109 --> 00:39:45,200
defining that

1383
00:39:48,230 --> 00:39:47,119
those type of tricks they use i thought

1384
00:39:49,829 --> 00:39:48,240
i saw them

1385
00:39:52,390 --> 00:39:49,839
happening in the occupy movement the

1386
00:39:54,150 --> 00:39:52,400
unfortunately brief occupy movement but

1387
00:39:56,550 --> 00:39:54,160
they were infested with agent

1388
00:39:58,310 --> 00:39:56,560
provocators you'd have one masked guy

1389
00:39:59,589 --> 00:39:58,320
throw a brick towards the cops then all

1390
00:40:00,950 --> 00:39:59,599
of a sudden he's gone but a hundred

1391
00:40:02,230 --> 00:40:00,960
innocent protesters are getting

1392
00:40:04,309 --> 00:40:02,240
tear-gassed and beaten

1393
00:40:05,589 --> 00:40:04,319
on the premise of them being violent it

1394
00:40:07,510 --> 00:40:05,599
makes you wonder

1395
00:40:09,990 --> 00:40:07,520
if change can ever really come about

1396
00:40:12,230 --> 00:40:10,000
because of this kind of manipulation

1397
00:40:14,309 --> 00:40:12,240
i think in some ways what we've seen

1398
00:40:16,470 --> 00:40:14,319
here

1399
00:40:18,230 --> 00:40:16,480
after 9 11 and with a focus on say

1400
00:40:19,109 --> 00:40:18,240
occupy or if you look at the sting

1401
00:40:21,030 --> 00:40:19,119
operation

1402
00:40:22,630 --> 00:40:21,040
involving the informant brandon darby

1403
00:40:23,430 --> 00:40:22,640
with the 2008 republican national

1404
00:40:24,870 --> 00:40:23,440
convention

1405
00:40:26,950 --> 00:40:24,880
what we've seen is a lot of money from

1406
00:40:27,270 --> 00:40:26,960
the federal government being earmarked

1407
00:40:30,390 --> 00:40:27,280
for

1408
00:40:32,710 --> 00:40:30,400
counterterrorism and that flow into the

1409
00:40:34,230 --> 00:40:32,720
fbi as well as local law enforcement

1410
00:40:36,069 --> 00:40:34,240
and the truth is there aren't a bunch of

1411
00:40:37,190 --> 00:40:36,079
muhammad autos running around the united

1412
00:40:37,990 --> 00:40:37,200
states you know there's no evidence

1413
00:40:39,829 --> 00:40:38,000
suggest that

1414
00:40:41,430 --> 00:40:39,839
that that is the case but you have

1415
00:40:42,230 --> 00:40:41,440
millions about billions of dollars

1416
00:40:44,790 --> 00:40:42,240
flowing

1417
00:40:46,550 --> 00:40:44,800
in the effort to fight terrorism and so

1418
00:40:47,990 --> 00:40:46,560
what ends up happening is groups that

1419
00:40:48,550 --> 00:40:48,000
aren't what it was necessarily targeted

1420
00:40:52,950 --> 00:40:48,560
for

1421
00:40:54,630 --> 00:40:52,960
counterterrorism activity

1422
00:40:56,230 --> 00:40:54,640
and i think you know that's why we see

1423
00:40:58,790 --> 00:40:56,240
what we see with you know

1424
00:41:00,550 --> 00:40:58,800
informants being used in occupy uh with

1425
00:41:02,790 --> 00:41:00,560
informants being used for example the

1426
00:41:04,790 --> 00:41:02,800
2008 republican national convention

1427
00:41:05,990 --> 00:41:04,800
and i think in some ways you know when a

1428
00:41:08,790 --> 00:41:06,000
bunch of counter-terrorism money

1429
00:41:10,550 --> 00:41:08,800
flows to cops there's a suspicion among

1430
00:41:12,550 --> 00:41:10,560
cops that well these people on the left

1431
00:41:14,069 --> 00:41:12,560
you know they're protesters they must be

1432
00:41:15,750 --> 00:41:14,079
up to no good they must be up to

1433
00:41:17,270 --> 00:41:15,760
on the verge of some sort of violence

1434
00:41:18,230 --> 00:41:17,280
and i don't think it's necessarily wrong

1435
00:41:20,550 --> 00:41:18,240
for the fbi

1436
00:41:22,870 --> 00:41:20,560
to use informants in those groups just

1437
00:41:24,309 --> 00:41:22,880
to use informants to get information to

1438
00:41:25,430 --> 00:41:24,319
you know to spy on them to some instead

1439
00:41:26,550 --> 00:41:25,440
to say like well are they really

1440
00:41:28,230 --> 00:41:26,560
interested in terrorism

1441
00:41:29,589 --> 00:41:28,240
but i think where the fbi has started

1442
00:41:31,430 --> 00:41:29,599
across the line

1443
00:41:33,349 --> 00:41:31,440
is by using these informants as

1444
00:41:34,150 --> 00:41:33,359
provocateurs as people right who aren't

1445
00:41:35,589 --> 00:41:34,160
just listening

1446
00:41:36,710 --> 00:41:35,599
but are saying hey do you want to do

1447
00:41:37,829 --> 00:41:36,720
something do you want to commit some

1448
00:41:39,270 --> 00:41:37,839
sort of act of terrorism

1449
00:41:41,510 --> 00:41:39,280
and i think that's what we're seeing

1450
00:41:42,630 --> 00:41:41,520
more and more with the use of informants

1451
00:41:44,550 --> 00:41:42,640
yeah there's just too much of a

1452
00:41:46,150 --> 00:41:44,560
financial incentive for them but uh you

1453
00:41:48,069 --> 00:41:46,160
know with the increased surveillance

1454
00:41:49,670 --> 00:41:48,079
and the erosion of privacy that we find

1455
00:41:51,030 --> 00:41:49,680
ourselves dealing with

1456
00:41:52,150 --> 00:41:51,040
what do you say to someone who says well

1457
00:41:53,589 --> 00:41:52,160
if you've got nothing to hide what are

1458
00:41:55,750 --> 00:41:53,599
you so afraid of because i think that's

1459
00:41:57,030 --> 00:41:55,760
the wrong attitude

1460
00:41:59,349 --> 00:41:57,040
absolutely you know i think this is

1461
00:42:01,589 --> 00:41:59,359
always there there's always a tension

1462
00:42:03,270 --> 00:42:01,599
and there's always a conflict between

1463
00:42:04,950 --> 00:42:03,280
you know civil liberties and national

1464
00:42:06,550 --> 00:42:04,960
security so then the question is

1465
00:42:08,950 --> 00:42:06,560
how much are we willing to give up on

1466
00:42:11,109 --> 00:42:08,960
the civil liberties side to feel safer

1467
00:42:12,390 --> 00:42:11,119
on the national security side and i

1468
00:42:13,030 --> 00:42:12,400
would argue that we're giving up too

1469
00:42:15,109 --> 00:42:13,040
much you know

1470
00:42:16,790 --> 00:42:15,119
in some ways the pendulum has swung way

1471
00:42:20,150 --> 00:42:16,800
too much toward national security

1472
00:42:22,790 --> 00:42:20,160
you know what we have now if you look at

1473
00:42:23,190 --> 00:42:22,800
national security under president obama

1474
00:42:24,630 --> 00:42:23,200
since

1475
00:42:26,470 --> 00:42:24,640
his tournament off his first term in

1476
00:42:27,670 --> 00:42:26,480
office there's been an explosion of what

1477
00:42:29,030 --> 00:42:27,680
are called warrantless electronic

1478
00:42:30,790 --> 00:42:29,040
wiretaps or warrantless electronic

1479
00:42:32,309 --> 00:42:30,800
surveillance where they're going into

1480
00:42:34,630 --> 00:42:32,319
people's email and looking

1481
00:42:35,829 --> 00:42:34,640
for evidence of you know being involved

1482
00:42:37,670 --> 00:42:35,839
in some kind of

1483
00:42:38,870 --> 00:42:37,680
security threat you know under current

1484
00:42:40,390 --> 00:42:38,880
fbi guidelines

1485
00:42:43,030 --> 00:42:40,400
they can open up what's called a threat

1486
00:42:45,349 --> 00:42:43,040
assessment of anyone for 72 hours

1487
00:42:46,550 --> 00:42:45,359
which allows them to data mine to go

1488
00:42:47,270 --> 00:42:46,560
through your email to go through your

1489
00:42:49,270 --> 00:42:47,280
trash

1490
00:42:50,870 --> 00:42:49,280
to find out if there's any reason to

1491
00:42:52,950 --> 00:42:50,880
believe you are a security threat

1492
00:42:54,790 --> 00:42:52,960
and they can do that without having any

1493
00:42:56,470 --> 00:42:54,800
reason to believe that you are

1494
00:42:58,309 --> 00:42:56,480
involved in any sort of crime they don't

1495
00:42:59,829 --> 00:42:58,319
need what's what was what's termed a

1496
00:43:01,670 --> 00:42:59,839
predicate like a

1497
00:43:03,750 --> 00:43:01,680
reasonable belief that you are involved

1498
00:43:05,270 --> 00:43:03,760
in criminal activity they can for 72

1499
00:43:06,470 --> 00:43:05,280
hours to spy on you for

1500
00:43:08,950 --> 00:43:06,480
the purpose of seeing if you were

1501
00:43:10,470 --> 00:43:08,960
involved in terrorism and then after 72

1502
00:43:11,829 --> 00:43:10,480
hours they need that predicate

1503
00:43:13,510 --> 00:43:11,839
and what we're seeing is an explosion of

1504
00:43:14,790 --> 00:43:13,520
this of the federal government using

1505
00:43:17,030 --> 00:43:14,800
those powers to

1506
00:43:18,309 --> 00:43:17,040
surveil people to to look at private

1507
00:43:19,430 --> 00:43:18,319
look at their private information look

1508
00:43:21,750 --> 00:43:19,440
at their private emails

1509
00:43:22,550 --> 00:43:21,760
all in the name of national security and

1510
00:43:24,390 --> 00:43:22,560
and i think what

1511
00:43:25,990 --> 00:43:24,400
what ultimately comes with this is a

1512
00:43:26,870 --> 00:43:26,000
number of like blowback issues you know

1513
00:43:28,710 --> 00:43:26,880
for example that's

1514
00:43:30,550 --> 00:43:28,720
essentially how david petraeus went down

1515
00:43:32,150 --> 00:43:30,560
right like you know this is a this is

1516
00:43:33,670 --> 00:43:32,160
this is power so in check that i brought

1517
00:43:35,030 --> 00:43:33,680
down the cia director

1518
00:43:37,030 --> 00:43:35,040
and yet you know i think it's important

1519
00:43:38,470 --> 00:43:37,040
for people to realize that in the

1520
00:43:40,309 --> 00:43:38,480
you know kind of name of

1521
00:43:42,069 --> 00:43:40,319
counterterrorism we've given the

1522
00:43:43,750 --> 00:43:42,079
government a lot of surveillance power

1523
00:43:45,109 --> 00:43:43,760
that's being used against everyone you

1524
00:43:46,950 --> 00:43:45,119
know i mean

1525
00:43:48,790 --> 00:43:46,960
we have we have fusion centers in every

1526
00:43:51,030 --> 00:43:48,800
state that collect information

1527
00:43:52,790 --> 00:43:51,040
from local police agencies that collect

1528
00:43:53,829 --> 00:43:52,800
license plate information

1529
00:43:55,990 --> 00:43:53,839
trying to figure out where people are

1530
00:43:56,710 --> 00:43:56,000
going there's a growing you know data

1531
00:43:58,150 --> 00:43:56,720
set that

1532
00:43:59,990 --> 00:43:58,160
the federal government has on on

1533
00:44:01,510 --> 00:44:00,000
everyone and i think you know

1534
00:44:03,430 --> 00:44:01,520
there should be more inquiry of that of

1535
00:44:04,870 --> 00:44:03,440
how much privacy and how much civil

1536
00:44:08,069 --> 00:44:04,880
liberty are we giving up

1537
00:44:09,829 --> 00:44:08,079
in you know the name of uh

1538
00:44:11,670 --> 00:44:09,839
of you know fighting terrorism like how

1539
00:44:13,190 --> 00:44:11,680
much of our you know how much are we

1540
00:44:15,190 --> 00:44:13,200
shredding the fabric of our society in

1541
00:44:16,870 --> 00:44:15,200
the name of protecting it so to speak

1542
00:44:18,390 --> 00:44:16,880
right it seems like the the culture is

1543
00:44:21,190 --> 00:44:18,400
kind of going to

1544
00:44:22,069 --> 00:44:21,200
a position where you're a suspicious

1545
00:44:23,349 --> 00:44:22,079
person first

1546
00:44:25,829 --> 00:44:23,359
and then you have to prove that you're

1547
00:44:27,109 --> 00:44:25,839
not you know rather than the other way

1548
00:44:28,309 --> 00:44:27,119
around

1549
00:44:29,430 --> 00:44:28,319
you know that's definitely the case with

1550
00:44:31,510 --> 00:44:29,440
these threat assessments which i said

1551
00:44:32,630 --> 00:44:31,520
are like these these 72-hour periods

1552
00:44:34,390 --> 00:44:32,640
where the fbi

1553
00:44:35,990 --> 00:44:34,400
can you know basically look under every

1554
00:44:37,910 --> 00:44:36,000
rock related to you and all they

1555
00:44:39,589 --> 00:44:37,920
really need is an informant someone

1556
00:44:40,309 --> 00:44:39,599
maybe who's the criminal himself someone

1557
00:44:42,470 --> 00:44:40,319
who's paid

1558
00:44:43,589 --> 00:44:42,480
who says hey you know i heard about this

1559
00:44:44,790 --> 00:44:43,599
guy greg and

1560
00:44:46,470 --> 00:44:44,800
he's interested in committing an act of

1561
00:44:47,910 --> 00:44:46,480
terrorism and then they that's enough

1562
00:44:48,150 --> 00:44:47,920
for them to look at you you know that's

1563
00:44:49,109 --> 00:44:48,160
it

1564
00:44:51,349 --> 00:44:49,119
you know that isn't enough for a

1565
00:44:53,589 --> 00:44:51,359
predicate but it's not that's not good

1566
00:44:54,950 --> 00:44:53,599
yeah exactly but you know now that

1567
00:44:57,750 --> 00:44:54,960
anti-terrorism has

1568
00:44:59,430 --> 00:44:57,760
become such an explosive economic market

1569
00:45:02,309 --> 00:44:59,440
do you think we'll ever see

1570
00:45:03,910 --> 00:45:02,319
a post post 911 world or do you suspect

1571
00:45:05,109 --> 00:45:03,920
that whenever people start requesting

1572
00:45:07,109 --> 00:45:05,119
rights back we're just going to see

1573
00:45:08,870 --> 00:45:07,119
some government made narrowly escaped

1574
00:45:11,510 --> 00:45:08,880
terror plot paraded across the media to

1575
00:45:13,510 --> 00:45:11,520
remind us to sit down and shut up

1576
00:45:15,109 --> 00:45:13,520
it's hard to know you know i quote art

1577
00:45:16,470 --> 00:45:15,119
cummings who is the former fbi assistant

1578
00:45:17,910 --> 00:45:16,480
director who created the

1579
00:45:19,589 --> 00:45:17,920
you know it was one of the architects of

1580
00:45:20,710 --> 00:45:19,599
the sting programs and you know and i

1581
00:45:22,390 --> 00:45:20,720
asked him about you know

1582
00:45:23,910 --> 00:45:22,400
this kind of war on terrorism how long

1583
00:45:26,309 --> 00:45:23,920
can this go and

1584
00:45:28,230 --> 00:45:26,319
what the fbi believes is that you know

1585
00:45:29,349 --> 00:45:28,240
we're not so much at war with al qaeda

1586
00:45:31,510 --> 00:45:29,359
as we are with what they term

1587
00:45:32,309 --> 00:45:31,520
al-qaeda-ism the kind of idea of al

1588
00:45:34,150 --> 00:45:32,319
qaeda

1589
00:45:35,670 --> 00:45:34,160
and i said to him you know well if it's

1590
00:45:36,710 --> 00:45:35,680
an idea you know you can't really kill

1591
00:45:38,470 --> 00:45:36,720
an idea how can you be

1592
00:45:39,750 --> 00:45:38,480
at war with an idea of course and he

1593
00:45:42,309 --> 00:45:39,760
said that's right it's

1594
00:45:42,790 --> 00:45:42,319
this indefinite war and i think the fbi

1595
00:45:45,030 --> 00:45:42,800
really

1596
00:45:45,990 --> 00:45:45,040
believes this is generational if not

1597
00:45:47,750 --> 00:45:46,000
longer that

1598
00:45:49,910 --> 00:45:47,760
you know this is this is a threat to us

1599
00:45:50,870 --> 00:45:49,920
the fear that lone wolves in the united

1600
00:45:52,630 --> 00:45:50,880
states will

1601
00:45:54,470 --> 00:45:52,640
become inspired by al qaeda and commit

1602
00:45:56,630 --> 00:45:54,480
some sort of act of terrorism and so

1603
00:45:57,910 --> 00:45:56,640
they need to be on guard for that but

1604
00:45:59,030 --> 00:45:57,920
the question i raised in the book i

1605
00:46:00,550 --> 00:45:59,040
think is

1606
00:46:02,870 --> 00:46:00,560
you know how much have we missed as a

1607
00:46:04,630 --> 00:46:02,880
result of this focus on

1608
00:46:06,630 --> 00:46:04,640
uncounter terrorism you know if you look

1609
00:46:06,950 --> 00:46:06,640
at the mortgage fraud that went on in

1610
00:46:10,309 --> 00:46:06,960
the

1611
00:46:13,109 --> 00:46:10,319
fraud was an

1612
00:46:13,990 --> 00:46:13,119
area that the fbi prior to 911 was was

1613
00:46:15,910 --> 00:46:14,000
was cracking down

1614
00:46:17,750 --> 00:46:15,920
on was a big part of their business and

1615
00:46:19,430 --> 00:46:17,760
you know if they weren't so focused on

1616
00:46:20,950 --> 00:46:19,440
on counterterrorism could we have caught

1617
00:46:22,470 --> 00:46:20,960
some of these issues that became

1618
00:46:24,230 --> 00:46:22,480
financial contagions in the middle of

1619
00:46:25,589 --> 00:46:24,240
the last decade you know i think that's

1620
00:46:26,870 --> 00:46:25,599
a real question and i think that's what

1621
00:46:28,470 --> 00:46:26,880
more people should be asking

1622
00:46:30,069 --> 00:46:28,480
i i don't i don't make the case and i

1623
00:46:31,190 --> 00:46:30,079
would never make the case that terrorism

1624
00:46:31,829 --> 00:46:31,200
isn't a threat and that the fbi

1625
00:46:33,510 --> 00:46:31,839
shouldn't be

1626
00:46:36,309 --> 00:46:33,520
interested in terrorism it should what i

1627
00:46:37,829 --> 00:46:36,319
do make the case for i think is that

1628
00:46:39,430 --> 00:46:37,839
the priorities need to shift and i think

1629
00:46:40,309 --> 00:46:39,440
they need to shift back to organized

1630
00:46:42,150 --> 00:46:40,319
crime and

1631
00:46:43,910 --> 00:46:42,160
financial fraud and you know the the

1632
00:46:45,190 --> 00:46:43,920
typical things that the fbi was focused

1633
00:46:47,430 --> 00:46:45,200
on prior to 911

1634
00:46:49,349 --> 00:46:47,440
yeah 100 agree on financial fraud i

1635
00:46:52,950 --> 00:46:49,359
think that is the real enemy

1636
00:46:55,109 --> 00:46:52,960
of today it is just so unfortunate

1637
00:46:56,550 --> 00:46:55,119
and it's hard for people to really

1638
00:46:58,630 --> 00:46:56,560
understand

1639
00:47:00,630 --> 00:46:58,640
to what degree terrorism is a danger

1640
00:47:02,470 --> 00:47:00,640
with all the manufactured

1641
00:47:03,750 --> 00:47:02,480
stories coming out like it's it's just

1642
00:47:06,710 --> 00:47:03,760
hard to know

1643
00:47:07,430 --> 00:47:06,720
of course there is some guy somewhere

1644
00:47:09,829 --> 00:47:07,440
who

1645
00:47:11,270 --> 00:47:09,839
will want to bomb something but i mean

1646
00:47:13,510 --> 00:47:11,280
do we really need

1647
00:47:14,630 --> 00:47:13,520
to grope everyone who goes through an

1648
00:47:16,950 --> 00:47:14,640
airport

1649
00:47:17,829 --> 00:47:16,960
because that could happen sometime

1650
00:47:19,430 --> 00:47:17,839
somewhere i mean

1651
00:47:21,349 --> 00:47:19,440
you're more likely to get in a car

1652
00:47:23,910 --> 00:47:21,359
accident on the way to the airport

1653
00:47:25,750 --> 00:47:23,920
you know yeah i mean in so many ways our

1654
00:47:27,430 --> 00:47:25,760
counterterrorism policy that security

1655
00:47:28,870 --> 00:47:27,440
measures have really just been

1656
00:47:30,069 --> 00:47:28,880
reactionary right you know after the

1657
00:47:31,109 --> 00:47:30,079
shoe bomber everybody had to take off

1658
00:47:32,549 --> 00:47:31,119
their shoes and

1659
00:47:34,069 --> 00:47:32,559
after the underwear bomber we limited

1660
00:47:35,270 --> 00:47:34,079
the amount of uh liquids that could be

1661
00:47:37,430 --> 00:47:35,280
brought onto

1662
00:47:38,390 --> 00:47:37,440
an airplane and how much of that is

1663
00:47:40,870 --> 00:47:38,400
really effective

1664
00:47:42,790 --> 00:47:40,880
you know i i don't know i mean i think i

1665
00:47:44,470 --> 00:47:42,800
i think that is that's a real question

1666
00:47:45,990 --> 00:47:44,480
and but i also think the fbi has been

1667
00:47:48,069 --> 00:47:46,000
very good at

1668
00:47:50,150 --> 00:47:48,079
you know dialing up the fear novel

1669
00:47:51,910 --> 00:47:50,160
they're dialing up the fear a little bit

1670
00:47:53,349 --> 00:47:51,920
yeah the way it works these sting

1671
00:47:54,950 --> 00:47:53,359
operations you know when it works a

1672
00:47:57,750 --> 00:47:54,960
sting operation it could go for

1673
00:47:58,790 --> 00:47:57,760
a a not very ambitious plot you know

1674
00:48:00,950 --> 00:47:58,800
something simple

1675
00:48:02,710 --> 00:48:00,960
um instead they have you know their

1676
00:48:04,150 --> 00:48:02,720
targets go for extraordinary plots like

1677
00:48:06,069 --> 00:48:04,160
bombing skyscrapers or

1678
00:48:07,829 --> 00:48:06,079
bombing transit systems you know things

1679
00:48:10,069 --> 00:48:07,839
that are are horrific and

1680
00:48:11,510 --> 00:48:10,079
awful if they were to really occur um

1681
00:48:12,549 --> 00:48:11,520
but i also think it's worth pointing out

1682
00:48:14,309 --> 00:48:12,559
that

1683
00:48:15,670 --> 00:48:14,319
you know just it's actually quite easy

1684
00:48:17,030 --> 00:48:15,680
to commit an act of terrorism in the

1685
00:48:18,150 --> 00:48:17,040
united states you know i mean if you

1686
00:48:18,470 --> 00:48:18,160
wanted to commit something horrific i

1687
00:48:20,230 --> 00:48:18,480
mean

1688
00:48:21,829 --> 00:48:20,240
look at newtown connecticut right this

1689
00:48:23,589 --> 00:48:21,839
it's one guy with a

1690
00:48:25,190 --> 00:48:23,599
gun an assault rifle and some

1691
00:48:27,190 --> 00:48:25,200
high-capacity magazines and

1692
00:48:28,710 --> 00:48:27,200
he commits a horrific crime he kills 20

1693
00:48:30,309 --> 00:48:28,720
school children but

1694
00:48:32,069 --> 00:48:30,319
you know the truth is in the last decade

1695
00:48:33,910 --> 00:48:32,079
we've seen more people killed through

1696
00:48:35,270 --> 00:48:33,920
that alone gunman with that kind of gun

1697
00:48:37,510 --> 00:48:35,280
violence than we have

1698
00:48:39,030 --> 00:48:37,520
through you know so-called lone wolves

1699
00:48:40,309 --> 00:48:39,040
with al-qaeda sympathies you know the

1700
00:48:42,390 --> 00:48:40,319
truth is that we're not seeing

1701
00:48:43,990 --> 00:48:42,400
the death toll with you know these

1702
00:48:45,430 --> 00:48:44,000
so-called al-qaeda terrorists and the

1703
00:48:48,150 --> 00:48:45,440
wolves that we're seeing with just you

1704
00:48:50,630 --> 00:48:48,160
know random gunmen who pick up arms

1705
00:48:51,589 --> 00:48:50,640
right i mean we're kind of getting down

1706
00:48:53,349 --> 00:48:51,599
to uh

1707
00:48:54,870 --> 00:48:53,359
the end of the show now but you know you

1708
00:48:55,510 --> 00:48:54,880
bring up sandy hook and my opinion of

1709
00:48:57,270 --> 00:48:55,520
government

1710
00:48:59,670 --> 00:48:57,280
is that the conspiracy and the outright

1711
00:49:02,390 --> 00:48:59,680
criminality they go far deeper than

1712
00:49:04,630 --> 00:49:02,400
even your work but at times it's it

1713
00:49:06,549 --> 00:49:04,640
often hinges on anecdotal evidence or

1714
00:49:08,309 --> 00:49:06,559
sketchy witness testimony so

1715
00:49:10,150 --> 00:49:08,319
it is good to step out of that once in a

1716
00:49:10,950 --> 00:49:10,160
while and focus on some good

1717
00:49:13,190 --> 00:49:10,960
old-fashioned

1718
00:49:14,870 --> 00:49:13,200
obvious and well-researched corruption i

1719
00:49:16,230 --> 00:49:14,880
i love the book i thought the stories in

1720
00:49:17,670 --> 00:49:16,240
it were fascinating

1721
00:49:19,589 --> 00:49:17,680
thanks very much i appreciate it of

1722
00:49:21,270 --> 00:49:19,599
course well trevor anderson thanks so

1723
00:49:23,030 --> 00:49:21,280
much for being on the show this is such

1724
00:49:24,390 --> 00:49:23,040
important information to get out there

1725
00:49:26,390 --> 00:49:24,400
it's great that you've been brave and

1726
00:49:28,710 --> 00:49:26,400
dedicated enough to do it

1727
00:49:30,230 --> 00:49:28,720
um is there any new or deeper direction

1728
00:49:33,030 --> 00:49:30,240
your research is going to

1729
00:49:34,150 --> 00:49:33,040
be taking you next no actually we kind

1730
00:49:35,990 --> 00:49:34,160
of hinted on that i mean

1731
00:49:37,589 --> 00:49:36,000
the next project i'd like to do if i can

1732
00:49:39,349 --> 00:49:37,599
if i can turn it into a book is to

1733
00:49:41,589 --> 00:49:39,359
to look at how a lot of this money

1734
00:49:43,270 --> 00:49:41,599
that's been spent on counterterrorism

1735
00:49:44,950 --> 00:49:43,280
and surveillance for counter-terrorism

1736
00:49:45,829 --> 00:49:44,960
efforts is is really being turned

1737
00:49:47,510 --> 00:49:45,839
against people

1738
00:49:49,270 --> 00:49:47,520
and invading their privacy you know i

1739
00:49:49,750 --> 00:49:49,280
think this is the next question for us

1740
00:49:51,430 --> 00:49:49,760
like

1741
00:49:52,790 --> 00:49:51,440
what what is the future of privacy in an

1742
00:49:53,910 --> 00:49:52,800
age of terrorism and i think that's

1743
00:49:54,710 --> 00:49:53,920
really something i'd like to look at

1744
00:49:56,870 --> 00:49:54,720
right

1745
00:49:58,069 --> 00:49:56,880
i mean that's a real concern because it

1746
00:49:59,910 --> 00:49:58,079
just seems like

1747
00:50:01,589 --> 00:49:59,920
problems we have like can't you know

1748
00:50:02,870 --> 00:50:01,599
liquids on airplanes and taking your

1749
00:50:04,790 --> 00:50:02,880
shoes off

1750
00:50:06,710 --> 00:50:04,800
when do these go away these happen

1751
00:50:07,510 --> 00:50:06,720
because one guy over the course of all

1752
00:50:09,510 --> 00:50:07,520
history

1753
00:50:11,030 --> 00:50:09,520
tried to do something and didn't get it

1754
00:50:13,109 --> 00:50:11,040
done you know

1755
00:50:14,230 --> 00:50:13,119
it does seem a little ridiculous right

1756
00:50:15,670 --> 00:50:14,240
yeah there's definitely i think so much

1757
00:50:17,349 --> 00:50:15,680
of the policy we've seen

1758
00:50:18,710 --> 00:50:17,359
for counter-terrorism and so much of the

1759
00:50:21,030 --> 00:50:18,720
policy that ultimately

1760
00:50:22,950 --> 00:50:21,040
creates programs that invade our privacy

1761
00:50:24,549 --> 00:50:22,960
um are just reactionary it's kind of a

1762
00:50:26,230 --> 00:50:24,559
knee-jerk reaction to

1763
00:50:28,069 --> 00:50:26,240
uh some kind of threat as opposed to

1764
00:50:30,150 --> 00:50:28,079
being a really reason to look at

1765
00:50:32,150 --> 00:50:30,160
what would keep us safer and how can we

1766
00:50:33,990 --> 00:50:32,160
balance civil liberties with concerns

1767
00:50:35,910 --> 00:50:34,000
about national security

1768
00:50:37,190 --> 00:50:35,920
well trevor where can people keep up

1769
00:50:38,230 --> 00:50:37,200
with you um do you want to give them

1770
00:50:40,630 --> 00:50:38,240
your website

1771
00:50:42,549 --> 00:50:40,640
yeah my website is trevor aaronson.com

1772
00:50:43,109 --> 00:50:42,559
and my last name is spelled with two a's

1773
00:50:46,870 --> 00:50:43,119
so it's

1774
00:50:47,270 --> 00:50:46,880
trevor t r e v o r aronson a a r o n s o

1775
00:50:50,870 --> 00:50:47,280
n

1776
00:50:52,230 --> 00:50:50,880
with the episode too

1777
00:50:54,069 --> 00:50:52,240
uh well that does it for me you know

1778
00:50:55,589 --> 00:50:54,079
thanks again the book is terror factory

1779
00:50:57,589 --> 00:50:55,599
pick it up and learn something

1780
00:50:59,349 --> 00:50:57,599
keep up the good work man great thanks

1781
00:51:00,470 --> 00:50:59,359
so much for having me anytime have a

1782
00:51:03,990 --> 00:51:00,480
good day

1783
00:51:05,670 --> 00:51:04,000
bye well there it is another

1784
00:51:07,750 --> 00:51:05,680
higher side chats in the bank i

1785
00:51:08,069 --> 00:51:07,760
personally see terrafactory as a great

1786
00:51:10,870 --> 00:51:08,079
way

1787
00:51:13,589 --> 00:51:10,880
to reach someone who won't or can't go

1788
00:51:15,030 --> 00:51:13,599
quite as deep as we usually do on thc

1789
00:51:16,790 --> 00:51:15,040
you really don't have to look that far

1790
00:51:18,710 --> 00:51:16,800
to see there's a real [\h__\h] problem

1791
00:51:20,230 --> 00:51:18,720
and that really is the point i think

1792
00:51:22,390 --> 00:51:20,240
terrafactory is just

1793
00:51:23,990 --> 00:51:22,400
perfect imagery to describe what we have

1794
00:51:25,349 --> 00:51:24,000
going on in our government

1795
00:51:27,670 --> 00:51:25,359
and with that said thank you for

1796
00:51:29,109 --> 00:51:27,680
allowing me such an intimate place in

1797
00:51:31,190 --> 00:51:29,119
your life for the past hour

1798
00:51:32,950 --> 00:51:31,200
hope we can do it again please continue

1799
00:51:34,309 --> 00:51:32,960
to share the show leave me reviews

1800
00:51:35,990 --> 00:51:34,319
donate if you can

1801
00:51:37,990 --> 00:51:36,000
read some of the blogs by my upcoming

1802
00:51:38,790 --> 00:51:38,000
co-host and myself that will be dropping

1803
00:51:41,270 --> 00:51:38,800
this week

1804
00:51:43,430 --> 00:51:41,280
and check out the high quality and bold

1805
00:51:43,829 --> 00:51:43,440
t-shirt designs i've come up with thus

1806
00:51:46,790 --> 00:51:43,839
far

1807
00:51:48,950 --> 00:51:46,800
at conspiratees.net here's a little dose

1808
00:51:49,589 --> 00:51:48,960
of anti-flag to get the blood flowing

1809
00:51:51,430 --> 00:51:49,599
again

1810
00:51:53,990 --> 00:51:51,440
and i'll see you on the sabbath people

1811
00:51:54,950 --> 00:51:54,000
you're gonna die gonna die gotta die for

1812
00:51:57,589 --> 00:51:54,960
your government

1813
00:52:00,230 --> 00:51:57,599
die for your country that [\h__\h] you're

1814
00:52:00,950 --> 00:52:00,240
gonna die gonna die gonna die for your

1815
00:52:44,829 --> 00:52:00,960
government

1816
00:52:44,839 --> 00:53:12,829
sickness

1817
00:53:12,839 --> 00:53:26,829
[\h__\h]

1818
00:53:26,839 --> 00:53:36,829
slaughtered

1819
00:53:36,839 --> 00:54:07,270
radiation agent orange

1820
00:54:07,280 --> 00:54:23,190
tell me what to do

1821
00:54:28,309 --> 00:54:25,910
gonna die gonna die for your government

1822
00:54:31,109 --> 00:54:28,319
die for your country that [\h__\h]

1823
00:54:32,069 --> 00:54:31,119
you're gonna die gonna die gonna die for

1824
00:54:34,790 --> 00:54:32,079
your government

1825
00:55:04,829 --> 00:54:34,800
die for your country that [\h__\h] you're